S1 E2 – Graffiti or Street Art?

The Pistache Podcast – S1 E2Graffiti vs Street Art. Discussing the differences and similarities between Street Art, Graffiti and Urban Art. Is this kind of art a safe space where everyone loves each other? No, of course not, we’re human beings and we love hating each other for our differences. This episode stays focused on the topic and doesn’t go off on too many tangents.

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S1 E2Graffiti vs Street Art – Podcast Video

S1 E2Graffiti vs Street Art – Podcast Transcript

This transcript of the Pistache Podcast has been generated using artificial intelligence, so it’s not perfect at this point. This is also episode 2, and we’re talking over each other quite a bit, but i think this transcript is a lot better already.

This is The Pistache Podcast, we’re talking about art, creativity and culture brought to you by Nick and Jamie Bennett.

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And to day we’re gonna be speaking about Graffiti vs. Street Art is the title. I guess everything sort of related to those that topic. So I guess we if we start roughly with graffiti, you know, graffiti artists probably don’t even call themselves graffiti arts to separate corners or writers if they’re getting more classic on it. Well, I guess if you’re a writer, you’re just literally writing your name. And in that’s sort of the basis of what I would sort of call graffiti. Yeah. Sounds about right. Yeah. Well enough writing a name then improving the style that you’re writing your name. Getting up everywhere. Yeah. Getting up everywhere. Then adding, you know, colors, details, technique, improving your techniques, you know, adding characters. Seems to me that that would be the classic sort of definition of what I would consider graffiti without having to go back to the origins of the name graffiti where that comes from. And I find that particularly useful when people have done that. You know, I mean, we’re talking about something, an art form that’s just literally called graffiti.

So, yeah, it’s kind of a weird one because like you say, you were always trying to define things not only difficult to define because it totally comes a little bit or maybe even a lot down to a matter of opinion. Yeah, like we’re saying, you know, like even the difference of Street Art and graffiti and it’s like they’re defined terms, but it’s still open to interpretation. Yeah, for sure. I mean, a lot of certainly graffiti writers probably are more I’m not going to say opinionated because that maybe sounds negative, but they have more maybe opinions on exactly what is graffiti and what is not graffiti. And maybe have issues a little bit more with Street. Well, certainly from our experience, your way of just graffiti writers we knew years ago or even nowadays, they tend to have maybe a little bit more of a problem, say, with street art and street artists, where street artists don’t really seem to care in general whether it’s what it’s called. That’s just for my personal kind of like experiences and maybe my view point as well.

I don’t know that many people who would be what you consider street artists and then moved on to do graffiti. I feel like there’s more the other way. Yeah. People who did graffiti who evolved into sort of what you’d call street quiet street. So I guess we’ve done a rough definition of what we call graffiti. So a rough definition of what are called street art would literally just be out in the street. So that could be know really basic sort of like stencils post, you know, wheat pasting stickers, but then it can get, you know, way more sort of an obviously spray painting as well as probably the base, you know, the most of it still spray painted and applied with paint like graffiti is. Then, you know, it can evolve into sort of street art installations, sculpture, even like yarn bombing. And then you see quality video projections as well.

Yeah, it kind of gets more conceptual, like you say.

You know, the term conceptual art where it’s more about the reason why you’re doing it and things like that as well, rather than just the actual piece of art and the aesthetic kind of all of it kind of leads a little bit more down that road.

So I might be more. It’s almost when you think about it, it’s like if you went to like a big, you know, like art gallery, like the Guggenheim or the Tate. It’s almost just you might get all of the variation that you see. They’re just done outside in straight in restoration. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it’s like on the streets. Yeah. Basically, if you really wanted to be concise. One thing I was actually just going to say is when we were saying about the definition of graffiti, were you saying it’s like the writing your name or all of that aspect? I think. One big thing that a lot of graffiti writers and artists probably think is super important for it to be considered, graffiti art is going back to the thing that has to be done with spray paints. So even if you are doing something that say looks like quote unquote traditional graffiti, i.e. writing your name in a bubble letter or whatever wild style or whatever it is, is that if you do it with a brush.

A lot of people immediately or don’t consider it graffiti or like we said, if you cut pre-cut older stuff out with stencils even or something and then roll that on or all those other techniques.

I think it is specific to using a spray can. It’s probably another thing that kind of defines graffiti.

I mean, I was listening to a podcast the other day. I can’t remember who it was, but they were talking slightly about the subject with their coming at it more from the point of view. Graffiti writers and what he was saying from his point of view is he is saying you take I mean, I don’t necessarily agree with this, but he’s saying if you’re graffiti writer, you spend years and years honing your skills and affecting your techniques and then someone can come along just with a stencil and throw that stencil up and literally 10 seconds spray over it. And sometimes I think the issue is then a lot Street Art artists possibly like us would then not necessarily like fully understand the rules of what they you know, they go and just paint over like a graffiti artist from the areas piece with a stencil. And then I think a graffiti artist might feel that that’s more than just respect on several levels because they’re covering something that they can say there’s a got more technique. And so craftsmanship, whether it was something they just throwing up in 10 seconds and I’m just a poster like. Yeah. Exactly. And also then they’re also disrespecting the kind of rules, the art and the culture.

Yeah. And the rules and everything.

Yeah, exactly. Which I think. Yeah. Becomes part of it. But then really with that the initial graffiti thing, once you get your eye in and you’re involved in it, you’ll see like whole areas are just tagged up by specific art. Yeah. Recognizing the tags. Yeah. And so they’ll do like major pieces, productions, murals, all the more evolved graffiti. And they’re also starting to be tagging up like the whole area.

And then even a great artist or throw just throw up a tag. Yeah. For sure. Like that. Maybe even essentially looks kind of crappy because this is one of the things you’re saying as well as like big aspects of graffiti is getting up everywhere. Yeah.

You know, like the man just being prolific. Exactly. The maximum amount of like tags and pieces and like you said, productions or wherever it may be, but just the maximum amount of your name basically going up.

I guess, you know, even within that you get someone like Shepard fairey with eBay or that’s almost the defining. Like if he could if he. I would imagine if he is writing one short phrase about what he’s doing, he’s just being prolific and just getting the image out there at the beginning of Andre the Giant, just so people are seeing it like a million times. And then it’s just the repetition of seeing the image in your head.

And that’s almost why he probably instead went for posters because it’s so much quicker and easier. Yeah. That essentially that idea of getting up everywhere is kind of comes back to what you were just saying before. It’s like Chuck, a poster up Premier Mall home, got a photocopier for all the people out there, actually. I guess sometimes we’re talking about some of these people and a lot I’ll obviously know the name, especially someone like Shepard fairey. But if you don’t, he’s the man behind eBay. Yeah. And I think obviously a lot of people, a lot more people know eBay without maybe possibly knowing the name Shepard fairey, I guess.

I think it’s probably possible. Yeah, I guess he became sort of more like, you know, Main Street. I’m not saying he’s like, well, I mean, I guess he is kind of mainstream, but not to the point that, you know, when he did the Obama portray it for then his political campaign, that’s not really so upped his profile as an artist.

He has a very recognizable style. And to explain against people. And so he did portray, I guess you could say, of Obama and Obama then used it for his campaign. And that became not only something, you know, that was recognizable and had the connections with Shepard and the whole eBay thing. But obviously it was on a totally different level. And the actual how I say the connotation in the way it’s being used for something like a political campaign had never probably be let. No one had ever used a street artist or something.

I think they all they just found the image. Then they used the image. I understand. I I didn’t ask him. No, but I think then there’s some sort of agreement. I can’t remember exactly what happened. But there’s also, you know, with I am thinking now.

I was going to say that are apparently Shepard fairey or Obama’s law. I can’t remember which one it was.

But the photographer who took the photo that Shepard based the stencil.

Oh, yeah. Then start getting really into it. And I don’t know if there was a court case about that as well. Yeah.

And who had the rights to the image, which, you know, for anyone, I think probably who does any kind of all on the business level. Knows that it’s a very it’s a very hard thing to define. Yeah, it’s like it can be sometimes talked in percentage like things like that. So that’s to say percentage like you take the original image. How much percent the change, the original image. So 100 percent not changing. It would literally just be taking the photo, printing it off and slapping up somewhere and then the percentage goes off like what you do with it, how much changed colors, how much you changed the image, whether it was a traced image. And you can obviously see that quite easily by just laying one thing on top of another on like, say, a lightbox or whether he actually drew it by just looking at the image. You know, I mean, there’s a million things.

Then there’s also with that once it’s over 70 years old. If this piece of you think you can basically do what you want with it. Yeah.

Someone doing that in the local area where you live at the moment, where he’s going and taking photos of like pieces of art in museums that are specifically over that amount of time. That’s his thing. Yeah.

And then he goes in with towns or whoever arranges different things. Well I don’t know whether, you know, it’s totally illegal legal or whether there’s a combination.

But yeah, he basically does that and then just, you know, pretty often then posters up on old buildings or in town centres, I guess maybe try and another concept of a way to engage with the public, because that was another thing that we’re here to talk about that artist.

He’s actually he’s a French artist. He’s done a lot of work. All all over is called Julian the Casablanca. And yet he basically I met him a couple of weeks ago. And he essentially what he does is he’ll say if you go to Paris, he’ll go into, say, the Louvre or like a really big gallery, which generally always in sort of rich, more affluent areas of the city.

Right. He’ll take one of the images that the copyright or the intellectual property is expired on it. And then he’ll blow it up large and then he’ll go and paste it in what you’d call a poor area of the city like that. So he’s trying to he’s almost trying to be like the Robin Hood of Street Art and taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Kind of a really interesting concept. When I talked to him, I guess what his thing, you know, he’s not I’m not saying he’s not an artist, but all I ask is was like, you’re not really creating art as such. It’s more like a creative concept.

It’s what we said. It kind of comes back to that conceptual art. It’s funny because, you know, when I was at art school, more or less 20 years ago, there was I mean, it wasn’t obviously the beginnings of conceptual art because there’s always been concepts and things like that. But I remember going to, for example, the Turner Prize one year and I think it was the year.

Tracy, Yemen is Emin Emily. I can’t I can never remember one it.

And the piece that we saw that time was, was that thing that she did with the bed. The unmade bed. Yep. Which people can go and Google and have a look at it. And I remember their not only being up more like in the media and stuff like that, but I remember obviously actually going and looking at it and people literally walking in and looking at it and being like, well I left my bedroom this morning and it looked kind of like that. What the fuck am I going in? And maybe even paying to go into a gallery as well, you know, cause it is at the old tay and. And then, you know, I could I could just see there was uproar about it. People are like, well, that’s not all. And it kind of you know, that’s why I was saying it was literally purely a concept.

And she’s trying to move you or she’s trying to, but that’s what people kind of get upset about. And it’s like, well, she did it. You’re talking about it. You’re kind of making it. And that’s what she wants. Yeah, you’re making it hard. Yeah. Like in a lot ways.

Yeah. I mean, this is the thing is it comes back to like an opinion. Are you actually is are just the do you have to be like at least say paint a sculpture, blah, blah, blah? You know, there’s lots of different like different practices or can it literally be something like that, which I mean, I think it’s generally accepted that it can. Whereas I think maybe like I said, it’s not the beginning of it. But 20 years ago, it was moving into those kinds of domains of like Turner Prize and stuff like that. Same thing with Damien Hirst with the formaldehyde cow or whatever it was. I think that was in and around the same time. I just remember vividly I think I actually wrote a dissertation actually based on kind of a little bit what we’re talking about. I can’t remember.

But yeah, I think with that it’s a bit like when you had all the sort of hip hop music things or controversial music. A lot of times the perfect thing to, you know, a lot these people are doing promoting now they’re trying to shut down like sort of in America, a big Christian groups. You know, all these people, they be going out, don’t buy this album, don’t do this thing. They’re doing the publicity like for you and say. Tracey Emin is almost a bit like the same thing, isn’t it? It’s like, oh, this is an art. It’s like it comes back to the Warhol thing where you’re talking about it and whether you’re talking about it in a positive or negative way, you’re just talking about it. So you’re just giving it like time and space. And in the cultural area, you know, it’s a. It reminds me a bit of say with Banksy, though, so you can’t really talk about graffiti in Street Art without talking specifically about Banksy, where a lot of people would be saying on Facebook, for example, I mean all sorts of like Street Art groups and the people sort of within it. Generally Street Art Banksy everyone. No one’s had the same success as Banksy. Everyone has this kind of or the people of being negative had this slight air of jealousy about it and they would just be sort of shitting on his work or, you know, as if it doesn’t have any sort of real value to it. And it’s like, again, you’re just talking about it. So you just giving him more airtime.

It’s a shown that everyone seems to just love it or enough people do, because really when you look at it, he’s just doing so. Some people that say that he’s kind of jacking the stencil style of someone. I mean, you’ve got like other people around the same area, like sort of you’ve got like black la rap who’s sort of considered the father of stents law. Then you also people like Jeff Aerosol, who’s doing roughly the same thing in France. You know, a very similar style at roughly the same period as black Borat. But a lot of people say, oh, b, look at Banksy style the actual way visually what it looks like, it looks like black. Look at stencil style. A lot of times it even had the little rap was the original Banksy thing with black Borat and rats and anagram for R in the Black Mirror.

Again, if people are googling black is b l e. Okay. Okay. Yep. Okay. So yes, I mean I’m sure if you misspell in LA rap. Yeah, I would anyway.

But just know just for this they even say if we’re just talking about him, he was specifically I remember listening to the thing where he was saying he was specifically influenced by gains in New York City early on and actually seeing the graffiti there and then coming back to Paris and thinking he’s gonna be staying in Paris.

But he realized that style just wouldn’t work in Paris till it had no connection. So he adapted his stencil style to suit the city of Paris ethically. Yeah, exactly. He thought this is going to work better here. It’s going to connect more with the population. People are going to like it.

The buildings as well. Yeah, exactly.

All of the city and s then graffiti influencing Street Art. So I think what’s going to really end up with this conversation is at a certain point you’re basically just doing a year nyang thing where one’s just rolling into the other and they’re they’re not even really separate. Yeah, they’re kind of the same thing. And I guess in one NGO you’ve got graffiti the other and you’ve got street on one spectrum where you have yin and yang. And then and another thing you’ve got, say, vandalism all the way to, you know, having your art in a gallery and you’ve got everything in between where it all just crosses over. And it’s not just a black and white thing. I think just the reason these conversations happen, I think, is because at a certain point, you know, people have got to you got to make your website and then you’re going to be using these words on there for Google CEO for things like this. And then it’s Instagram, Twitter hashtags. You’re gonna hashtag it Street Art or graffiti or both. So you got to kind of consider this if you are an artist, because it’s going to be part of how you actually promote your work.

And it reminds me of going back to say what the 90s when you’d go into like our price, like a red rent and stuff like that in the UK, our price like Tower Records, you know, those kind of places and things had to just be in a genre where, you know, at a certain point you’re just going into like a rock alternative and you’ve got, you know, Smashing Pumpkins, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Primus.

But all these things where it’s like it’s not really, you know, they’re not really the same thing, but you kind of have to group it in in some way just for the commercial to sell the stuff. And for people think, oh, I’m flicking through this, I like Red Hot Chili Peppers, so maybe I like Primus or fight no more because there is some kind of similarity almost coming back to the other thing I’ll probably end up talking about or will end up talking about in the graffiti as history is in there, sort of the term urban are, which are kind of quite like where they’re sort of, you know, should be like all visual art forms arising from urban areas based on sort of contemporary urban culture that could be inside, outside, in galleries, income, you know, commercial artwork and advertising. So the styles called urban art. It

Made me think about when they started in music, like urban music, you know, and it seemed like it really. People took it badly because they’re saying like a central area or will it more than it’s like it’s black music or, you know, from urban minority music, specifically black, because it took a mainly hip hop R and B, those things. But then people aren’t, you know, RICO comedy to be worried about calling it black music or anything. So it’s only becomes urban music.

Yeah, it’s interesting isn’t it? It’s funny.

That kind of almost leads onto those things of like inner city suburbs, you know, like differences between countries because some, you know, like say, for example, you know, taking just the very sort of obvious example of like us here in America about the inner cities, for example, are the rough places, you know, or the places where maybe, like you said, the coloured communities or the poor communities or the. Whatever, but in actual fact, say, like you take a city like Paris, the inner city is got no rough areas and no, you know, it’s all the suburbs.

That’s the that’s the rough or the poor or the color communities or again.

However, however you want to put it. So those kinds of things. You know what I mean? Say is it totally depends on like where you grow up. As far as like if you’re putting a label on something, like I said, the suburbs mean something to Americans, but the suburbs, which in French is born here means the total opposite. Yeah. You know, so like this is the thing of it. So hard to put, you know what label or like you saying what word you’re putting with things. Everyone has a different kind of understanding of what that word you know, the connotations and their understanding is obviously influenced by where they’re from or who they are or maybe even where they’ve been. To be able to actually get their head around these things.

Yeah. I mean, it’s not totally related to this, but I remember I mean, it is actually we can sort of like make it work with this because obviously we’re going to talk about is obviously Joe Michelle Basquiat because he’s the whole Street Art graffiti urban art thing. He’s actually having involved in that. But he is obviously in an indie film called Downtown 81. And that a certain point I say I’m thinking not being American, but having to been to a few quite a few place in America, like what’s uptown and why some towns. And so like I spent like a whole afternoon going down the rabbit hole of like, what does that mean? And what I realize is it totally varies on which city you’re talking about. Like in New York, uptown and downtown won’t mean the same thing as it does in Los Angeles or Houston or these things. So based on the geographical like north south, yeah. Often it’s like a north south thing.

And then but then which would make sense as kind of. Yeah. Be honest, I’ve never thought about Asian. I thought uptown is north, downtown, south, but it’s probably totally wrong.

And I’m sure I’m totally butchering it. But then, you know, I was like, oh but does uptown mean you’re going into a fancy area or the poorer area or the business district or not? And that’s where it all had like a lot of variation. But, you know, it’s again, just another thing where it’s like a word that’s just associate with something. But, you know, Americans might just take it for granted. They understand, like what that means. But I was like, oh, I’ve heard it in a million. Like Rafael Saadiq tracks John Michelle Basquiat documentaries.

How many hip hop songs sung that song Uptown Girl was a. Oh, yeah. Is that Billy Joe? Is it really Julia? Uptown girls in the downtown world. Is that like the lyrics are something or something else? Or is that something that totally or is a she is an uptown girl living in a is it isn’t it downtown something that’s.

Yeah. Billy Joel’s got a song called Uptown Girl. But that the other things another sort of I don’t if you call it soft rock or glam rock star thing from the same area isn’t it. It’s a bit more. Yeah. Either way someone can pretty fact check that.

We should give out a shout to Max for that. He was a big. You remember Lucy’s brother Max. He wasn’t crazy. Billy Joel fan. I think so. Maybe he could set a straight on that if you’re listening, Max.

I mean I guess what that then sort of semi leads into is talking about the urban thing is that I did also hear someone then talking about that Street Art is a cultural appropriation by predominately white people of graffiti, which is a predominately non-white art form. And I kind of, you know, is being white. It’s almost like you being a white males, almost like you’re not allowed to actually have an opinion or even talk about these kind of things. And I do try to understand it because obviously it is rougher, poorer areas where people you go like take Paris is a perfect example. You go there. The poorer areas have shitloads of graffiti everywhere. You know, I mean, it’s covered. It’s plastered like Madrid or something like that. It’s just absolutely plastered everywhere with it. People come in and then as soon as you get things that are actually called Street Art, and that’s when some of the artists are moving because like we’re saying, graffiti people are actually writers and they’re more involved in sort of hip hop culture. So I don’t know that when they’re writing, even a lot of them consider themselves artists based. When artists move into areas, that’s when the gentrification begins begins. Yeah. And then so when Street Art comes in, is that actually gentrifying these areas and then pushing people out? So is the true is that is that you know what he’s saying? Is that sort of right? I mean, I you know, I think we just get annoyed when as soon as we hear the cultural appropriation thing because of our work, we’re tattooing in symbolic tattooing and are indigenous backgrounds.

We’ve had conversations with people where this thing goes in a lot different ways, kind of comes down to that thing of like, well, if you’re white, then you can’t be indigenous as far as a lot of people are concerned. Which, again, I don’t know if we talked about that in those first two, but it’s just a totally ridiculous thing.

Like we said, we’re at least say on our mom’s side, she’s from a place called Correia and she’s she’s actually got the cranium, blood and the crazy name and everything like that.

And they’re on the list of. Indigenous people in Europe, like we said we were. I live in the Basque Country and they’re also I think I mentioned about this in the first one, so I’m not going to go back into it. But like you said, yeah, that kind of for us, it has an immediate. It kind of just turns me off immediately. As soon as I hear it, I’m like, ah, that again, you know, you hear about these things of. Yeah. Like, you know, some white kid getting beaten up in America because he’s wearing dreads by some black kids. And then so where it is the dread culture come from. And then you’ve got to delve into that. And it’s then, you know, it’s obviously it’s not even maybe necessarily an African thing, but maybe a slightly more Caribbean thing. And then the whole, you know, slavery behind that and why they’re doing it. But then it also comes full circle, as a lot of people that say nowadays say if you just took something that’s very white, like old people like the Vikings and you know, if your it doesn’t matter what color you are, whether you got curly hair or not.

To be honest, if you were on a boat like, say, the Vikings and the saltwater and the sea air and everything like that, and they’re not washing their hair with timidity, it’s going to turn into dreads at some point, man and lo rather you wear it. Well, it’s not whether you’re black or not, but whether your hair is curly or not.

Is it actually, you know, is where do you stop? How far into it do you go? Why you wear in the dreads? Do then does it have the connection with the with the Rasta culture and the Rastafarian culture coming from, you know, readings of the Bible and, you know, you just end up just going deeper and deeper.

I think we’re going to do a cultural appropriation anyway. So every kind of let that go as far as art is concerned.

I mean, the thing I think about a bit with. I mean, it’s obviously all these things are all connected. But with graffiti, if you think about it coming from these areas a lot times, it is just your marking out your territory. And then that does get into actual gang gangs marking out their territory as well. And in graffiti writers being part of graffiti crews, which is more you know, I was wondering, does that make it more like a bit like a team sport where it’s kind of, you know, when we’re sort of writing what you call strictly graffiti. I remember going out, smoking some joints, drinking some beer, probably doing some mild vandalism or saying, you know, I mean, and then throwing up some fucking shit shitty quality graffiti to mark our territory almost. And then, you know, then it becomes like a gang thing where if you go to like Los Angeles, it’s only look at things you’re not understanding if you’re not within that culture because it doesn’t really concern you. It’s not for you. It’s just for the graffiti writers or gang members. Obviously, as a spectrum of that race, just literally small crews, graffiti artist, just doing graffiti things all the way to gang members, literally saying if you come past this point in this street, you’re going to get shot.

Yeah, it’s interesting, you know, the fact that you’ve gone on to the Los Angeles thing. I can’t remember when I was reading it. It would have been a few months back, you know, and lo, like we said, when she when you talk about any subjects like, well, we were just saying with the with the dread culture or something like that, it often to me kind of depends how deep you go into things and how far back you go, because like you were saying, maybe with graffiti or something like that, I think and I maybe I’m butchering it because I’m trying to get into my memory banks, which aren’t very good about it coming from, say, New York or that’s the very beginning of it. And then what? What? You know, I was reading a book or an article or something, like I said a few months ago, and they were saying preceding that, even if you’re just looking in America, that it was much more than Latino gangs doing exactly what you were saying before, actually the word graffiti was even being used or that or literally way before the whole New York thing.

And any any of the spray paint, you know, they weren’t. Maybe they were using spray paints, maybe they weren’t. But that’s not really the point is that it was literally just the you know, the writing, the things. But what I mean, say as well as it was heavily stylized in what then had a later effect on West Coast graffiti compared to East Coast graffiti, you know, like the more Cho style lettering. But that’s what they were doing because that’s comes from the Latin culture and their gangs. But, you know, I mean, this was like purely I couldn’t tell you what era. But I think I think the article I was reading, reading was actually talking about maybe in the 40s that they were doing a lot of that. And like you said, it was specifically just between gang members to show where you can and you can’t go within Los Angeles or something like that.

So I guess says there’s quite a lot of things out there like that sort of pre-date what you called a modern graffiti area. So is also that pretty shows in the UK? Is it could Kilroy the guy and didn’t he I think as in the Second World War. He’s like literally almost doing graffiti style Street Art again in the 40s and stuff like that. So I guess you get these little pockets of. Things where I think probably in French culture, if you go back, there’s very few French people doing political things in the wars, and then I guess at a certain point you are, then it’s a bit like the cultural preparation thing. That’s like how far back in history because you do just go back to rock paper, cave paintings, rock paintings, you know, people scratching things out and stones. So it’s like there is a whole thing. But I guess at a certain point you need to. Where do you stop? Yeah. So just focus on when it’s become graffiti.

I guess what would be considered the beginning? A graffiti like the beginnings of hip hop and. Was it 70s basically some point in the 70s?

Yes. You probably then get on. I mean, that sort of New York style where you get if you’ve got an artist, say, like Dundee or someone who, from my understanding of it, seems to be one of the artists who really sort of move graffiti on from just sort of the basic tags to have sort of more dynamic lettering, basics or stick figures that then became sort of graffiti characters and stuff. So it seems like he or Don these when those people who’s kind of had a big effect where some people might know who it is, but it’s still relatively niche.

You know, I mean, it’s people I would definitely highly recommend that people, if they’re in any way interested in what we’re talking about, that they go and look at the books that Martha Cooper and or and with Henry Chow form did, because you’ll see all the pieces by these people like Don the.

Yeah. You know, is in there.

I know we’re going to talk about afterwards like future. Yeah. Cope too. Like you said, there’s this kind of iconic people yet throughout the history of graffiti that took something and then went and like you said, turned it on its head or create it a new style.

That is, funnily enough. You know what? We’re almost 2020.

And how many like bubble style lettering DC nowadays, it’s something that’s just constantly you’ll see there and anywhere you go. Any country, any city, you’ll see that bubble stuff, which as far as we said, comes from cope.

Yeah. I think coke to coke it. He had this sort of well again it’s only things like bet like a or he’s like who did the first dollar or who did you know round. That’s it. I think he’s pretty accepted as at least his thing from the Bronx and he did sort of throw up style like bubble style writing and it sort of then became or was then adapted into the Bronx or wild style. And then he’s someone who’s and gone on to collaborate with a lot of, you know, major brands added asked for like a conversion, all those things. So there’s some people who I guess everyone’s got a slightly different path, whether they go more commercial or they move from Street Art to graffiti or graffiti or Perry not Street Art graffiti, but graffiti to street or straight urban art going into galleries, not going into galleries. Everyone has what they

Want to do.

And so how they want to just sort of do it, you know, it’s funny if you look at it like you said, like are just personal as brothers. And like we said, you know, we do the business business together.

We spend a lot of time together. You know, there’s not a big difference in age.

So like we said in the introduction, friends, you know, everything mixed up, like for our own personal kind of journey into, let’s say, actually not painting on a canvas or a piece of paper and paying or walls. We’re actually, as far as I can remember, are probably our very first experiences of it was actually paying it, painting your walls in your bedroom. Yeah. Because when we were little, we shared a bedroom and then we moved into a bigger house. And I can’t remember how old I was, but not crazily old. Europe are older and I know that whether it was when we moved in or not. But when you a very early teen, I’m guessing you wanted to paint up the walls. And

Funnily enough for us, like, I guess this is the thing that you often see in like, you know, the old graffiti movies and stuff where like the ma more the dad is like saying, don’t go out there and paint and stuff, whereas all that being an artist, being super cool about that, not only let you paint the walls and paint your walls and then my walls. He actually helped us do it because he was actually really good at it, you know. So and again, whether it was brushing and you know, we were probably always using mixed media anyway. I mean, this is a thing like, say, for example, when we did a piece locally here, whether you’d call it, but basically when we painted a big wall and it was actually a like a commercial thing, you know, for a local playschool, France, Asia, which is a big Asian supermarket where we always do our shopping because we love eating Asian food. And I remember actually when we were painting the big wall on the side, because basically the guy has like a massive building and he had like a big wall. And it’s a really you know, it kind of gets into all of the topics that we’ve discussed because I remember him at one point asking us whether it was graffiti or not. So there was that the reason why he wanted us to do it is because people were tagging it and it looked ugly. As far as he was concerned, even though he’s a big fan of graffiti and Street Art. So, you know, that gets into all of that and then also we totally did it. You know, like because we actually had to do a bit of a like an actual sign, which was like obviously a lettering and a logo that he already had because it’s like a snack spot basically where you go in right in the middle of the big wall. I mean, this is a this is a pretty big wall.

I don’t know how many meters by how many meters, but I think, you know, four meters lie by kind of 10 or 15 long. So, yeah, it was quite a big one.

And we’ve since done his shutters and done things like that.

But what I mean is that like all of those kind of subjects were touched upon and then ask covering and then all the him asking us, well, are the taggers going to respect it? Because I think this was his idea. Are they going to respect it compared to if he just painted it, say, like black or white again and they just keep on coming back was probably his experience. So he will. But then at the same time, it turns into this, well, by you doing something commercially or, you know, and then people have a lot of issues with that.

And is it staying true to the thing? And then the other thing I was going to say is that we always use mixed media and we often choose it just for practical sake. I don’t care whether you think it’s graffiti or not, because I’ve used the spray cans, do the lines or the feel or not. And we actually did, you know, I mean, it was all done with spray cans. But for some of the some of the lines, we were actually like, you know, spraying into a cup and then brushing it on.

And the reason is, is because a lot of time when you’re looking at graffiti, it’s all about the impact from distance. You’re not going to stand like literally like especially looking at a wall that’s for me is by 15. You can’t stand like literally 10 centimeters in front of it. But that was actually a part of the criteria because the tables and the chairs are literally stuck on to the wall. And it’s just one of those things where with a however good you are, I don’t care how good you are. Graffiti, you can’t get the same line as with a brush. You cannot get that same like sharp edge on it. However well it’s done, even if you’re the best graffiti artist of all time. And it was something which we talked to him about and it was kind of something that affected it. And like I say, I don’t care, to be honest, but a lot of people would then start. Is that then getting into is a graffiti piece, is it not? And then on top of it, we used the old school French. You know, the French were really big on this. Anyone who went to France, say, at least 20 years ago and beyond that they had a massive culture of sign painting.

And it was like you’d literally be painting like Perry on the like a wall. And that was how they did the publicity before there was proper publicity boards and even probably going into the predating of like actual people doing more just posters and slamming them up. And it was like a it was a real artwork, an art form, even though it was purely commercial. But it’s really beautiful from an artistic point of view. You see a lot of them like just really worn out on old buildings, you know? And I know I have a go. Yeah. And I’ve kind of gone into a lot of things. But this is what I mean. Is it just off of doing one job? We did that. And on top of it, we also had to use the stencils thing for the logo because it was just like it was literally just as far as like, well, if we’ve actually got it, we could easily like in terms of can we or can’t we? We can do the logo and, you know, maybe measure it out. It’s got to be authentic to the exact logo. The dimensions have got to be respected and everything. So obviously the easiest way to do that was to cut a stencil out.

You know, there’s a lot of like and then people a bit like, say, with the graffiti you asked asking about the guy saying, oh, you know, all the technique and all that. But then there’s a lot of things where people consider if you do certain things that you’re cheating. Right. Yeah. You know, where a lot of these things it’s like. So what he’s saying, if you can’t, you just throw the sense of down as if that’s kind of cheating and it doesn’t have the same minister got cut the stencil out, which is a real bullet for you.

It’s like it’s a long time because you’re just better than I am. You know, I’ve cut obviously cut myself a lot of times by actually cut a whole fucking piece of my finger off like stencils. At one point I was no fun.

But then, you know, some people. Yes. Like, should you spray paint or should you do this? And I guess going into Street Art were a lot people don’t realize that NGOs were not a Street Art, but then into a lot of areas of art, which I really like.

Recently, the Guggenheim in Bilbao, they had a hyper realist exhibition and a lot of those if you see people painting it, you never see them doing their very first bit because there’s they’re just genuine. Yeah, because they’re just projecting it on. And then some people be like, oh, you can’t use a projector that’s like cheating. And it’s like, well, there’s great, you know, things going back to like Michelangelo and people like that. Yeah.

There’s a lot of debate about whether they were projecting and most of the likes experts. I mean, they were Vinci, I think with a lot of them, you know, like the more they’re looking into it. I mean, a lot of the Italians.

But I think even like like the old French, a lot of, you know, just European art in general and. And they’re going into, you know, there’s a really good series, was it?

What’s his name? Sharp charge. Simon Sharp. Simon Schama. Does he go into it? I think went on. I don’t remember anyone out there as well, like whether you’re into those kinds of artists or not. It’s an amazing series. Simon Schama series. What was it? Do you remember what it was called? Tower of Ah, Power of Art. And he does each episode on different artists. And it’s like crazy when he’s talking about issues. Which one was the Italian one who like killed people and was just known for being just like a crazy fighter in a car as Caravaggio?

Catchy. Yeah. Check it out. You can listen. I’ve listened to hours of podcasts and Caravaggio joining the Knights of Malta and he’s like before say something to him before us. Like his artwork didn’t really talk to me. We then say, you know, watching the Simon Schama thing, then listening to lots podcasts, he became interesting to me just as an individual. And then that made me like the artwork more. I was watching a thing on dunno if we touched on it before, but they’re talking about film directors and they’re saying that a lot of times, you know, you’re home. You know what makes a great film director? We’ll just apply it to art here because it’s the same argument. It’s like, is it that you, you know, did one amazing, amazing piece and the rest of your work? So, so or is it continuously pushing the envelope? I say someone like Picasso, where there’s a lot of adapt adapting the style. People don’t like it. By the time he like it, he’s changed it again. And people don’t like it or, you know, consistently putting out good work. And then on top of that, what’s the what’s the value of being like Salvador Dali, where it’s like I do like his artwork in some ways, but I’m more interested in him as a person almost. And I guess he’s all of those things at once. But on that, they’re specifically talking about film directors and what makes a good director. Do you constantly put out good work or do you just make one unbelievably fucking good? To be fair, it’s probably quite rare that someone does one really good thing and the rest is garbage.

But then you will see rare people that just, I guess have that like career where it’s just incredible.

But like you said, most people have one thing that’s above, above or beyond and why they probably see it more with, say, a lot of I mean, this is again, slightly different voice, a lot of comedy actors where you just do one thing, it’s fucking amazing. And you’re sort of riding that bit by doing shitty derivative versions of air or, you know, you just don’t do very good work for 20 years, but you’re paying the bills or saying like Robert DeNiro, for example, could be a good example where early on he’s doing is sort of method acting shit is killing it. And then at certain point he’s like, I think he has all these hotel, you know, I think he has a crazy business empire where he needs to do Meet the Fockers 90, like, here’s a new baby. You know, he’s gotta do some shit like that because it was probably quite low budget to produce in Hollywood terms. You know, you’re not making Avengers, but you can know you’re guaranteed. You’ll make he’ll make some kind of return on it, then keeps his steakhouse going and all these other things and. Yeah.

So really it’s a really interesting thing to kind of think about, like you said, whether it be the film making or, you know, like that one piece of art.

I mean, certainly for us, the the reference kind of filmmaker, if we are going to talk about that really quickly, because our and he obviously everyone says from who’s doing Star Wars, so many of the iconic things who are so heavily influenced by him. And he’s one of the rare people where I mean, at the same time, like you say, everyone, as soon as you hear the name, they talk about the Seven Samurai. Yeah, but they know who he is if they know even who he is. But he is actually what I meant say is he’s one of those rare people where like if you’re into it and you like the Seven Samurai and you watch the other movies, it still might be the best one for whatever reason.

But that comes down to a matter of opinion. But they’re all just incredible. Yeah, his whole life career. Even the ones that then aren’t based in the kind of samurai period and the more modern I even really like them, which a lot of people kind of draw the line at the the samurai compared to the modern stuff that almost goes in them.

Personally, I will sort of think Kubrick and Tarantino are the two people I thought I’ve got, you know, a Kubrick’s just doing quality work over a long period of time, but not is not like knocking out films. Every you know, there’s not Friday, Friday to next Friday, the Friday after he’s doing quality work over the whole course of a career where, say, Tarantino feels like GM really doing quality work. I like some of it, like kill Bill less than for me. Be like a case of pulp fiction is just genre changing, changed everything and send him off to me. He’s also a crazy character in his own right, and he has a broad it’s all quality work. Some of it, you might think, is a bit better. A bit less where? Yeah. I mean, maybe the whole film thing’s probably saying we keep for another point. I think you’re going off on a bit of a tangent again track here, but it’s kind of say with artists, it’s like say something like that, right. Right. So you look at Banksy, for example. That’s like he’s always created a persona that has no persona. It’s like he’s he’s the person. No one. So no one knows who he is. Most people don’t know who he is. But then he’s because this stuff so sort of politically subversive and social commentary, you kind of know a lot about his sense of humor.

What he thinks is important and that’s almost the most important thing is if you look at the actual quality of the artwork. It’s pretty garbage. You know, I mean, it’s not high quality at issue, the stencils. And I’ve looked at them close. They work on walls and stuff. It’s pretty just slapped up.

There is the idea that really threw the idea.

And then that’s his persona almost is.

And also, he definitely given him credit, has an incredible kind of like the at the same time the the visual impact. Oh, yeah. And the way in which which again comes back to actual this is really important part aspect of all is the way he composes the image. So obviously the composition, that’s a huge part of our, you know, all of those things like a really, really good. You know, like even the wall, the walls, he chooses the way in which he uses them. He can often convey like a crazy message with no words, which is pretty hard, man, like as an artist, you know.

I mean, he also has just the conceptual things like I’ll give a shout out to call him Banksy Ben. But he’s pretty much one of the first people or he was someone I know who really got into just Banksy collecting before anyone was even doing it. He’s just got stacks of all the original, you know, Kate Moss prints. You got three of those. He’s got loads of it. But then when Banksy did Santa’s Ghetto exhibition in Palestine, you actually had to go to the gallery in Palestine to buy a piece of art. At that point, I’d just like bought a house and literally was eating baked beans and Rahman everyday. And he he said, oh, you know, if he paid for a year to go out there, you go out there and then you buy you could buy the piece of Banksy and then he keeps it. So he paid for the whole holiday to then go into Israel, go over the border, going to Palestine. You basically pretty much going into a war zone. But then it’s got all these crazy going to the church in Bethlehem where Jesus is supposed to be a born and you get all these things on both sides of the border. I was like, well, that was a crazy cultural experience just to go and buy a piece of art. So Banksy essentially created that whole thing where not many people actually bothered to go and do it. But then the amount, the diverse things. I came away with a better understanding of Israel Palestine situation, a better understanding of, you know, you’re in this place where there’s all of these Abrahamic based religions have a lot of the centers of their centers and most important artifacts and things are all there as well. And there’s you know, he’s creating something that has way more content than just, oh, I got a pop up store in shortage and I’m gonna be doing this limited edition print and, you know, then I’ll sell it. I did ask nobody on shoes, not there’s anything wrong with their base concepts or always just stronger.

Yeah, definitely. He’s definitely like we kind of comes back that thing of like he’s someone is at the pinnacle. He’s a trendsetter. He’s someone who changes like a culture.


Just a really impactful.

I mean, to actually be fair, it’s like that was, you know, organized by what pictures on walls like thing. And then there’s loads of other artists like Ron english and other people. You know, I’m not even sure that that’s totally a Banksy style thing, but I think. I just mean, in general. Yeah, I mean, I think when I was saying that, you know, Banksy great. That whole thing, I like running. It’s literally anything. It’s more than that. But I think he was you know, when the original people go in there and actually painting on the apartheid wall and doing that. So I think he then is created, I think. But I think obviously I don’t know if anyone was specifically flying there to go and buy Ron english print. I could be wrong. And I think he’s also a great artist. So it’s not even a commentary on his worth or anything like that. But we literally four or five of us flew that literally just to buy Banksy print.

So I guess that’s the thing that puts it over the edge there. Yeah, it’s an interesting thing.

You know, when we’re going back to like this whole like what separates graffiti and Street are like we were saying the technique. Is it the technique?

Is it what you’re doing? Is it why you’re doing it? Is it how you’re doing it? There’s all these different things.

And like we said, it kind of like for people like us, I say I just don’t care because I just don’t care as far as like whether to say a graffiti writer is is pleased or no about what I whether they or not whether they’re pleased or not, whether they like it or don’t like it, or whether they consider what I’m doing to be graffiti or not graffiti, all those kinds of things. But it comes back to something which we’ve I think we even touched on this again with the original episodes, but probably maybe not with the artwork is the light from my experience. Says when? When I come across people again who are at the height of whatever they’re doing, they seem to be the less opinionated people. And it’s an interesting thing. It seems like an I mean, this is another thing where she can talk about, which leads down another path of like social media. It’s one thing for someone to say something online, and it’s totally different for them to say in your face.

And it’s a it’s a big part of life kind of social evolution at the moment. And while, you know, we know people who have kids who will be super opinionated online and they can’t just lie, even just go and buy a beer that loans say you’re not a beer. But, you know, I mean, they’re kids, but, you know, they can’t go and buy a Coke or something. They get all anxious because it’s literally person to person like contact and stuff. But what I mean to say is that like say just like an example of that, like when I was travelling in Malaysia, you got in touch with me, because at the time we were doing like with Pistache, we were doing a graffiti blog. So all of the travelling we were doing, we would take photos and write ups about the graffiti.

I say graffiti blog, probably more of a Street Art blog because it wasn’t specifically just graffiti, it was just, ah, you know, any city or country we went to. Exactly.

In the street. And so I was just there travelling and I knew that there was this big graffiti festival that was going on. And so you let me know because I’ve never see traveling. I’ve got my camera. Whatever happens. So you let me know that it was on and I knew it was going to be on anyway. But then, in actual fact, I think we I mean, you could probably tell me that some way or another, the girl or the lady that was organizing it found out that one of us was there i.e. like a Pistache person and wanted us to actually take part in it, whereas I was there by myself.

And like we said, we always like to do everything together. So already I wasn’t there with the mindset. B I didn’t have any spray paints or any equipment with me or anything planned, anything planned.

And I also had no money because it was at the end of my holiday. And it’s like, you know, you can get by in Kale, lie in Kuala Lumpur for nothing. You know, I didn’t. On top of it, my godfather’s, a Malay who lives there. So I didn’t even have to pay for a hotel. So I was actually down to the bones. You know, like nothing. All of that to say that. So I turned up on there was one day it was split into two days, this event.

And on the first day it was local writers. And it’s basically there’s a river that cuts through the middle of kale. They were paying on one side. And then the second day it was more bigger names. So there were a lot of like still Malaysians, but there was a lot more Asians. There was Australian writers, there was a whole international cast. And I can’t remember the names of who it was. But the biggest the most well-known crew were were a bunch of Australian guys. So I turn up to get my pass, still thinking I’m not going to paint and I’m just going to get my pass so that I can basically get down there and, you know, in the midst of the writers and speak to people, maybe interview them over, see, go and see this Australian crew, which for the life of me, I still can’t remember. I mean, this is 10 plus years ago, I think roughly 10 years ago. Anyway, I so I end up like literally they’re like, oh, you’re Pistache or whatever and just gave me like a cray. And it was like I literally had like one black pecan. I think a white can and like an orange or yellow can. And that was it. And they gave me a wool, which was six by four metres. And I was like and on top of it, the wool wasn’t white. They painted it blue for some reason. So it’s like it’s not like I could even just, you know, like painting, like, say something black with the can on like a almost like a Navy blue background.

Do you not even give me up was say, you know what I mean? So all of that to say that like so I had shoe over to like an art shop, find an art shop, get some pain, they didn’t have any spray cans. So I got paint and brushes and just did a piece and I could see there was, you know, already, oh is it gone? And this graffiti Street Art kind of thing. But the only people who were like that were little nobodies who I’d never heard of, who I mean, I don’t care either way whether they’re nobody’s or not. But the guys who actually came over and talked to me and were like, wow, I love you piece and all this guy and stuff with these Australians who were like a crew who’d done just like the most incredible piece of artwork were like, you know, already at that point, these guys were in their 40s, 50s, you know, like, I wish I knew the crew. But what I’m I’m saying all of that rambling a bit because it comes back down to this thing, is that most people, if they’re actually doing something and especially if they’re doing something good or they’re invested in it, they don’t care. Yeah, most of them are.

I think you can actually if you go on our website, Pistache Artists dot com, I think if you go on the Street Art link article, the fucking link something. So it’s called Street Art. I think on that there’s a video of Nick painting that a Miles Davis portrait. Yeah. Yeah, I think you can see the video at the top of that. Page at the moment, or at least when we’re recording this.

And so you can see I do actually spray paint a bit the background, but I’ve only got one line. I’m kind of yellow. So I mapped to out with yellow and then and maybe got some white and some black. That’s all the money I had. That’s all I could afford. I even got to meet the prime minister and he really likes it as well. So that was kind of cool. And I appreciate the fact that the city was doing it in a setting like that where they don’t have a great you know, there isn’t actually a huge like graffiti scene and stuff. Up until the these walls start getting painted. But instead of them going like a lot of cities go against it and try and like ban it or make it illegal or God knows what, they were celebrating it and not only celebrating it. The prime minister even came and met me.

Ask the artists and I think a lot of people or a lot of like cities, mayors, whoever’s making decisions, I think they’re understanding now that like Street Art is something that brings in tourists because, yeah, I mean, me and my wife forever we’ve been travelling. The first thing we look at is like what street art and art galleries are there. And then what we are eating is generally the things, you know, if he’s got those covered, I’m way more excited about a trip than if it doesn’t. And then down here near where we live in where our tattoo studios in Bayonne, they’ve got a festival down there which we’ll go into probably and a lot more depth in another episode. You know, take the guy all bar who’s sort of got the whole thing rolling through this gallery. We do work with cool space junk. I think that it took him about eight years for them to just accept that he could actually get something painted on a wall. And then now there’s all the usual stuff which take for granted in, say, Shoreditch, where there’s bike tours around all the different ah, you know, the the festival brings in loads of tourism like loads of people then taking photos of the Street Art, sharing it and social.

And I realize it’s like only a positive. And you also then sometimes you putting on a few really nice case of paint on a shitty building or poor in England you call like council housing sort of things which generally in maybe worse areas, you know, not that looked after and not that much like social housing. Yeah. Social housing. So what I wouldn’t mind doing is possibly even just we just quickly go through some of these people I think will end up being full episodes on. And I think as few people in it took a few things about then as someone specific who I wanted to talk more about. So it does cover this whole thing. But then I guess if you’re looking at people, you definitely want to look at Joe Michelle Basquiat with the same eye tag. He’s literally doing straight graffiti, writing our favorite artists of all time. And then it’s then going into galleries. He’s then becoming I don’t know what even style of art you call his actual artwork. He’s someone to look into.

And he’s also a very interesting person, because like you said, not only is he one of the kind of first street or street artists or graffiti artists, whoever you want to say, to go into that high art like high culture sort of domain. But he’s also one and this kind of comes back almost to some of that cultural appropriation stuff. He’s also one of the very rare black artists and one of the first black artists. I think they can’t remember the name of the guy, but he is literally one of the very early black artists to get into that high art realm as well. There’s not been many and preceding him. I can’t remember what the name of the guy was back and I could only I was thinking about it the other day and I could only think of that one person.

I think for a while Basquiat was the had had. I don’t know how you best phrase it, but he had the piece of work that so for the most about money for a black artists in America. But then now he’s sold a piece of art for the most. It’s the most expensive piece of American art ever sold. Well, he’s at that level, obviously. Then if you took we I think we’re go into an episode maybe just about him or probably him and Warhol by the two of them together is quite an interesting dynamic. Another person who obviously got a look at Keith Haring, who’s, you know, one pretty much on the pioneers of literally doing something when everyone else is sort of doing graffiti and writing and doing something. That is what you’d sort of consider a Street Art. And then someone else to look at is like feature a feature 2000 who’s an artist who stepped out of the graffiti world and sort of flipped it on its head in the late 70s and made it more sort of abstract and almost created more of a rhythm to his work.

Another really interesting deed on here as well, really sort of thing was one or someone who started painting on canvases, you know, in the 80s and transferring over. But then suddenly I wanted to talk to maybe the end of this episode. So I don’t think potentially merits his own. I’d like to show or maybe he does. I don’t know. Is Mr brainwash if you haven’t seen the documentary is a Banksy documents and everyone thought it’s gonna be like a film about Banksy. It’s called Exit Through the Gift Shop. And what it ended up being was a documentary about this artist called Mr brainwash. And then you get all the conspiracy theories in the art world. Who is missing? Is is mr brainwash also Banksy or just Banksy said that he wanted a mr brainwash. Exactly. There’s all these kind of just stupid theories and. Whatever stupid theory you can think of relate to that someone out there is writing a piece about how that’s the case, but for just to wrap up this round, we could talk about Mr brainwash here and then. Yeah. So for me then he sort of ties back into. He’s just borrowing and ripping off every single type of artwork you can think of, probably everyone on that list. I’d imagine he’s kind of being ripped off by mr brainwash when people watch it.

I think probably again and I mean this is just me speaking, but I actually went and saw it in the cinema multiple times and off. You know, I was quite shocked because like you say, I thought I was going and see something about Banksy and it went down a path I totally wasn’t expecting. But by the second or third time I went in six, I was kind of like just convincing other friends, maybe it’s come and see. And I just like going back and I thought, I’ll watch it again and I like watching it. Now I know what’s going to happen. And, you know, you you see lots of stuff that you wouldn’t notice the first time, but I was doing a little bit on top of it. It’s really annoying. The cinema, the main cinema where I go just doesn’t get dark enough, which is a total pain in the arse. But it meant I could turn around and actually watch people’s reactions.

And I think all of that say a lot of people were really shocked. And I think that the vast majority came out of it with the simple opinion that this did just. Just like an arsehole, like a total arsehole. And he’s just ripping everyone off so hard. But like you said, I mean, I’ll let you talk a bit more about it, but it kind of almost goes into the there’s some kind of almost vague links about how Warhol is criticised in the same way.

And yeah, I think with Mr brainwash, I think I just thought it’s a good way to tie up this episode because he to me seems to be the person who he’s totally shitting on the graffiti street urban are cultural appropriation jacking other artists making money off of it? Yeah. Being commercial, basically, you know, not even really doing any of his artwork, just having a team of people and going, I want this and then they just do it. And then he calls it mr brainwash. So I kind of feel it. He’s an interesting person. He’s almost just blowing this out and it’s just like, who gives a shit? The end of day. That’s almost a message I get from areas like he has his pappy Batman or is spray can Campbell’s soup, you know, all these things where he’s almost to me. I don’t know if he’s on purpose making it interesting for me or from sort of writing my own narrative about what he’s doing there. For example, there was say at the Guggenheim in Bilbao, which is the biggest major art gallery you’ve got down here. If there’s a Mr brainwash exhibition, I’m there. I’m definitely going to out. And it kind of reminds me of we went to we got an invite to this private Picasso ceramics exhibition and I went in there and I just looking at the you know, it’s got these plates with food and stuff is made. I just found it super funny. And it put me in a really good mood where I feel like if I go and see a mr brainwash, you’ll enjoy it. Yeah. I can’t imagine. I’m not going to enjoy it for the right reasons, for the wrong reasons. But that’s kind of who cares? It’s almost. That’s what makes it interesting for me.

And I think, yeah, I totally agree. And it’s like like you said that like after there may be the first time there’s the initial shock and I’ve got one opinion after the second time, my opinion is almost steadily changing. And it’s not that I totally understand and totally agree that he’s rep finished ripping everything off. But at the same time, it’s just really funny. Yeah, like I just I really enjoyed it. It was just a really. And it got. And the thing about it is I just like stuff that makes me think, you know, and that really got me thinking and questioning everything I’m doing, why I’m doing it, why I think about it.

Well, I think about then are what I think about Street Art. And this is something like as we’re wrapping up this one, obviously we would love for it if you can leave comments or anything like that or not if you can. But if you’d like to, please feel free. And we’d love to know your opinion on something like like what we’re talking about right now. Exit through the gift shop or what your opinion is on graffiti or Street Art.

What you think, what your opinion is is the difference or or which one you prefer.

Or any any kind of thing that you can put in there that we could maybe, you know, that might get people chit chatting and stuff.

That’s the kind of beauty of doing these things. I think really a lot of these you know, some of these verses is probably lot of good things we can go into as a, you know, different episodes.

And I think a lot of it just really comes from your personal point of view and where you are on that spectrum. You know, it’s like, okay, so the pure graffiti artists, they’re going to come at it from one way. A lot of people are doing Street Art come at it from another way. People who have ended up somehow doing urban are, which is maybe no nothing industry at all. And they’re just doing paintings at home and sticking them up on Instagram. I to think about it in a different way. And yet at the end of day. I just feel like with all these things, it’s is good for you to kind of feel how you feel about it. Have a conversation, but you gotta let other people let understand they’re going to feel differently about it. Let them have their say and then really try not to be helping them. Yeah.

How’s your view on people about life? This is graffiti or. This is. And yeah, it’s bullshit.

It doesn’t matter. You’re only gonna end up upsetting yourself more so you might as oh just let it go.

Yeah. That’s a good like a good point and a good way to wrap up the thing.

Yeah. So obviously again if you wanna support the podcast, it’s all about, you know, really just sharing it with your friends, family on your podcast apps, just following us, giving us a good rating if you feel like we did a good job leaving comments. Yeah, just sharing in and following us for the moment would be the really the best thing you could do for us. We’d really appreciate that. Yep. And we hope you enjoyed the episode. Thanks a lot. See you guys.

But as you mentioned at the beginning of the episode to promote the launch, The Pistache Podcast were given away around two and half thousand pounds worth of original artwork that we’ve created, which is well over 3000 U.S. dollars worth. So to enter, go to our website Pistacheartists.com. You’ll find the full details that prizes you can win, how to enter and the full terms and conditions of the giveaway. Competition is super simple to answer, and it’s not going to take you more than a couple of minutes to complete. There’s quite a few prizes. A chance of winning is pretty high. You can take part in the giveaway until early August. If you’re listening to this before then you really should enter. You might win a really special piece of art for your collection. Or you could give it away as a gift and have someone love you for the rest of eternity. Good luck.

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