S1 E5 – Philosophy of White Men Can’t Jump

The Pistache Podcast – S1 E5 – Philosophy of White Men Can’t Jump. Is the film White Men Can’t Jump just about Basketball or does it have a deeper meaning? Nick and Jamie discuss the philosophy behind the film & how much it influenced their own lives. They also talk about playing basketball in general & when is a foul a foul? This episode is not just for ballers!

The Pistache Podcast on iTunes

The Pistache Podcast on Stitcher

The Pistache Podcast on Spotify

The Pistache Podcast on Youtube

S1 E5 – Philosophy of White Men Can’t Jump – Podcast Video

S1 E5 – Philosophy of White Men Can’t Jump – Podcast Transcript

This transcript of the Pistache Podcast #5 Philosophy of White Men Can’t Jump has been generated using artificial intelligence, so it’s not perfect at this point, but we think this transcript is getting a lot better already. Let us know what you think?

This is The Pistache Podcast, we’re talking about art creativity and culture brought to you by Nick and Jamie Bennett.

Before we get on with this episode, we just got a little bit of business take care of to promote the launch of The Pistache Podcast, we’re giving away around two and a half thousand pounds worth of original artwork that we’ve created, which is well over 3000 U.S. dollars worth. So to enter, go to our website Pistache artists dot com where you’ll find the full details, the prizes you can win, how to enter and the full terms and conditions of the giveaway. It’s really simple. Anthony is not going take him on a couple of minutes to complete this. Quite a few prizes here. A chance of winning is pretty good. And you can take part in the giveaway till early August. So if you’re listening to this for then you really should enter. You might win some really special pieces of art for your collection. Or if you win, you can also give it away as a gift and have someone love you to the rest of eternity. Something we forgot to mention in the first couple episodes. The intro music for the podcast was created by Alex English and he can listen to more of his music at SoundCloud dot com forward slash l x e hip hop. We’ll put links to that and to the competition in the show notes. All right.

So this is Pistache podcast, episode 5. And we’re talking about the philosophy of White Men Can’t Jump. It’s obviously it’s a favorite film of both of us. We went through like quite a lot of phases where we just watch the same fail again every single literally every single day.

He liked to put it in the VHS, especially like before playing basketball or something like, you know, before hitting the core.

Yeah, we’d like to watch it.

And then I think it probably like informed both of our quite shitty attitudes towards playing basketball. It was like we definitely I guess like neither of us are particularly tall. But we had a hope in the garden since we were like Baby Zoom. So we both got good show. I mean, we’re not saying we’re good players compared to some of the really ballplayers we know. But we’re definitely way better than average. And when we used to play like in England in the parks, you pretty unlikely to ever lose a game.

Everyone’s pretty shit, you know, really going to offend the English, but there isn’t a very good level. Yes, I like it already.

If you say compare it to France where we played along as well level as we might minus. Obviously there’d be good competition with our friends because we had a group of friends who can bowl like shout Dan to bruise. Ali Yeah.

I think, you know, era as well. Maybe I don’t know if anything has maybe changed since. But basketball just wasn’t as popular in the UK as it was probably on the continent and obviously compared to the states.

Yeah. I mean we also when we were playing a lot of st well certain points went and one got really popular as well. People are like literally saying they’re playing and one rules where it’s like what?

You can’t put it in the fucking fast light shake and bake. Yeah. You can shake and bake my car, put it in the basket and they couldn’t even shake and bake. To be honest, I mean it’s.

And what do you get points for that or what? I know. I never really understood, to be honest.

Yeah, exactly. I like watching some of the videos and I like watching the skills like the professor and being like that.

Yeah. I think we take a lot of inspiration from the film playing both quite trash talky when Nick needs to play it in the University League. I used to be on the sidelines trash talking to other players to the point where one of the really big players came and said he is going to see me in the parking lot and I just shut the fuck up. Generally, I’d always just call people shooter like shooter and we’ll shoot the ball. Shoot, just pick. They’re sort of generally their point guards or someone who’s so decent ish. But you could see it get under their skin.

We were certainly better at playing street ball than we were like organized ball. You know, like I’m pretty small, I’m 5 8. So I was obviously a point guard. And I mean, I played in the university team for Middlesex when I was at art college, but we also doubled up into the Metropolitan League. And then I think we played sort of like competition level kind of UK nationwide. I can’t remember we would play like London towers, like the team or something like that. Maybe when we played we’d play against the cops. That was always a good way. But yeah, it was never really our thing. Yeah, I would play a five or five year old outdoors. It didn’t have to be two on two or three on three or one on one, but it was just not so much like organized ball. Coach Yeah. That sort of side of thing then.

You know, in organized ball there’s a lot of those little rules which should just really stupidly annoying that you need when you play indoor ball, but then you don’t need like defensive three seconds and shimmy. You know, you know when you play Street Art. Well I don’t think anyone’s ever called defensive. It’s like a play like so yeah. Anyway. But both of us I think got a lot of influence from the film and ended up playing sort of based on a very trash talkie. I always felt like it was better to just get inside someone’s head and kind of fuck them up in their head when they’re lying. You know, if you do that already something you know, we’ve had players I remember just walking around having my hand. I generally had my hand right in front. The other players eyes, the whole game. Sometimes I made great men go home crying.

You see NBA players, you know, certain certain players play that type of defense where they have the kind of front hand up and they’re guarding and trying to kind of block the field of vision of the offensive players. Good work. Plenty. But does it get super frustrating when. Got someone and there’s the inevitable slaps in the face. Yeah, definitely slap some people in the face, that kind of thing.

I guess the White Men Can’t Jump and been white dudes in a predominantly kind of, you know, black, I guess you could say spore.

I mean, yeah, in London there’s no not the kind of most iconic street courts that I ever played in were. Turnpike Lane. Yeah. And I mean, you know, all of all friends. I mean when you are listing the friends, obviously, on the other hand, my kind of main friend outside of that group was Stu Stewart.

Comes up a lot in the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Stu was black. So we’d kind of turn up as a black and a white dude. White Men Can’t Jump, right? Exactly. We’re slowly wearing is bananas.

Those are his shoes. He had these shoes that were so worn that they basically were kind of curved bananas and they’re going to go and get some skin issues at one point.

The order that say, you know, we were kind of like white dudes. Kind of you know, we we had sort of confidence in our skills. Yeah. And definitely kind of we’d have a little bit of that playing it down.

And then when you start playing, it’s like Woody Harrelson in the film where it definitely a big influence.

You mean play basketball and you’re looking like shit and then you can play a lot better than most the players you come up against. I guess we also sound like it might be dicks and being really shitty slapping people in a member. There’s a dude turned up at the book or one of our courts and said he wants to play. Just seemed like he was being called us with our friend Ali and a couple of other people and he went out for a layup, just missed it, and then said he that I found him as I did a little. She didn’t touch him, and no, I didn’t say. The next I went OUTFRONT. I slapped him really hard across the face like maximum power. And then he like came down and he was like trembling. And I could see is really angry. I thought I was just going to get into a fight, which wasn’t that uncommon. And then he went over to his back and it was a bit like, oh, shit is going to go and get a knife. I say, he took a cigarette out, put it in his mouth and just trembling so hard as I could. But then off that I was like a deejay gonna play again. And he was like, No, no, I’m not playing against you. And I said, no, no, you, me, we’ll play together against these other guys. And then we played and we both got a really good side. And actually, so it almost was like a good initial prep.

Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, like you said for a riff probably come off as dicks and we probably were dicks to a certain extent and you know, arseholes on it. But I mean for me personally I didn’t get much like that unless someone he had me. So I was just gonna say no. I mean that was the real thing is I was always happy just to play. You have a good time. But then if someone starts talkin or act in like they’re the Cher or whatever it may be, that’s what would get me coming at you and me in the trash talking and stuff.

Our mentality in general, isn’t it, because we’ve obviously been basketball’s the only real team sport we’ve been involved in. Everything else is super shit or everything else like martial arts is always really sort of basically a one on one star thing. It’s a bit different. There’s not that much trash talking in martial arts and Sydney. I guess you get CONOR McGregor levels where it’s all about that.

And then yeah, UFC, it’s become like a gigantic thing where you almost have to do it and get to get it as prime. I think he did what ever needs the sun and then that kind of yeah.

We didn’t ever need to promo any fight and say nothing that’s spectacular going on. But yes, I think we were just it’s almost took a shit to us that raised our game. But then I feel like sometimes we’d have been almost making someone talk shit to us because we knew that would raise our game a bit as well. Oh, I know. Maybe that’s somewhere in my head, you know, like.

Yeah, kind of just pushing buttons a little bit without being like a full on. Yeah. You know I go at it too hard or being rude or anything. Yeah. You probably introduce actually what the film is to people who think we already did.

We did her episode 5 White Men Can’t Jump just in case I did forget anyone who hasn’t seen it. I think most of our listeners seem to be in our similar age bracket and be looking at demographics. We got like some younger people listening as well. An iconic movie? Yeah. White Men Can’t Jump 1990 American sports film is written by a guy who’s quite interesting called Ron Shelton who would talk about it a bit and see stars Wesley Snipes and Woody Harrelson as street ball hustlers. I guess other interesting facts about the film is that Bob Lanier for any NBA fans, he’s a sort of Detroit Pistons and Milwaukee Bucks legend. Hall of Famer was hired as the basketball coach for the film and he was so pretty impressed with both Harrelson and Snipes and suggested that both reached what he’d called Division 3 college basketball skill level, which pretty good is pretty decent in America. He also noted that between the two of them, Harrelson was actually a much better player. And you’re saying that Snipes was a really good athlete, but he said his jump shot was terrible. I think they had to work on that. And if you look at the film, the way you look at action, yeah, the action is not good. But in the film, obviously, they just keep gaining. It’s like so like Shawn Marion in reality, isn’t it? And then it also featured quite a few NBA players like those Marcus Johnson played the character Raymond. Funny and Freeman Williams played Duck Johnson who they’re playing the game and I know I heard, but I don’t remember seeing him.

Gary Payton was also one of the street ball players sort of in the background of a I know you mentioned that and I actually watched it last night for the first time. And I don’t know how long. And I mean, obviously, I didn’t know if I’d known to look out for Gary pay. Maybe I would have seen him. But I certainly on re watching it in kind of a little bit analyzing it for the podcast today. Didn’t notice it until.

Yeah, he’s there somewhere apparently.

Yeah, I remember actually. Off the top of my head like seeing an interview with Woody Harrelson at one point and he was saying that like prior to getting the part in that film he didn’t really wasn’t getting many parts, wasn’t being very successful. And his agent actually said to him, like all you’re doing is just going around and playing ball and you’re not like working hard enough. And so he obviously was like just playing a lot of ball out, you know, street ball. And just like, you know, it was obviously just a passion and something he was doing all the time. But the guy was saying, you’re not going to get any jobs if you carry on. And then all of a sudden, almost that kind of karmic sort of thing. And all of a sudden this part came up.

Yeah. I think initially they were looking at Denzel for Spike Lee’s sweaty where Wesley Snipes casting of obviously Denzel and Spike Lee got thing.

And then there was also took Keanu Reeves instead of Woody Harrelson. Yeah. But I think by the time I think that actually got Wesley Snipes booked in and he’d already done something with Woody. I really know just super tight already. So I think he almost made Kiana look bad in this set up for the film. He didn’t get it or maybe got another part. There’s definitely something going on. He got Woody and obviously the chemistry, you know, they just straight off of the bad, just going with all the crazy jokes.

You can just see it worked so well. It’s just like, didn’t I have another film afterwards?

Was it money train or something like that? Did they play like brothers, Douglas’s brothers? Possibly. I don’t remember that being gay, but I think I obviously just played off how good the banter in our relationship was in White Men Can’t Jump.

Never heard whether Keanu Reeves is a bowler is he’s quite tall. Yes. I guess he might at least have that going for him. He might be a we might be. Who knows?

Either way, he didn’t get the part, and that’s quite good. One thing when I was doing bit research is episode that I was really pleased to find out that it’s actually a favorite film of Stanley Kubrick’s Wow. I like whereas a reference after films like If Kubrick writer is a film that’s good enough for me to go, I think it’s probably him is easily my top ten films. I have really got a defined list.

Yeah, it’s definitely one of my favorites. I could probably just away say tops three even just straight away. I’d have a hard time thinking of a film I prefer. I can think of other films like you say a kind of favorites. Yeah. I can’t think of anything. I’d actually prefer the NFL.

Probably a top 10 favorite films list isn’t a bad episode for us both to come in here and talk about because immediately I start thinking, oh, is that another thing we watch all the time relentlessly was point break as well. Yeah. But then suddenly I’m like, well, I haven’t thought about Star Wars yet. Space Odyssey. I’ve got a father. You know, there’s so many other things. Goodfellas, loads of stuff that come into my mind if I actually start thinking about it. Yeah. Hard to say. One thing the like really pisses me off these days is they always go if I can do a remake. We’re talking about point break the remake of God. I never I didn’t even watch it.

I heard so much shit about it. I just didn’t even watch it.

Point right. Remake super shit. Can’t believe how shit it was. Going back to White Men Can’t Jump, there’s talk of a remake with possibly Blake Griffin in it. That’s one possible remake. And then there’s also. Well, I guess it would be more like a sequel where there’s a new duo of Michael B, Jordan and Miles Teller going up against the original duo of Woody Allen and Wesley.

It’s kind of that sounds better, rather. I’d certainly rather see them make like a sort of not like a part two, but something that follows it up that actually maybe even has the original guys in it or something like that, rather than just a remake of the movie with two new actors playing Woody and Wesley’s roles, if you know what I mean. I’d be more up for that personally. Yeah, for sure. You might as well just make a sequel. Yeah, I think I saw that as well. Possibly break. Blake Griffin was more about producing and funding it rather than actually being in it. Yeah, I think it was him like some sort of famous NFL player or something and they were talking about actually making the movie rather than being in the movie, I think.

All right. Yeah, that might be actually the whole thing could be right. Could be tied in. Yeah. Which I wouldn’t def or it wouldn’t be against a sequel. There’s no need for one.

I guess the things you see cause you know how some people got upset with Star Wars prequels he talked all about. It’s a bit like the Bill Hicks thing with drugs is sort of why don’t just legalize all drugs and then people don’t want it legal. You can just pretend it’s still illegal. He doesn’t make any difference to you. Doesn’t spoil the original. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don’t feel American makes any difference. He must be lying. Well, that’s just a bit shitter. It’s a bit like on a bull thing when Michael Jordan came back to play for the Wizards. Some people say, oh, that tarnished his legacy. I really didn’t like it in school.

No one talks about it really in general. You know, I mean. If you hear people talking about Jordan, it’s all about the Chicago in the three piece, it’s dope came back and played really well, especially for his age.

Talking about selling off last time collections of comics, I had a stupidly large collection of like NBA basketball jerseys. And one of the things that went first was the Michael Jordan Wizards jersey.

You know, song was like, Oh, yeah, I definitely want that. And it’s just an interesting footnote on a career. Like you said, it didn’t tarnish his legacy. I mean, obviously, if he hadn’t played that, his stats for the party been even higher if he didn’t take in the very end. It’s not like he had a major decline. And he was like not like when Shaq was playing at Phoenix and Boston and he played like 10 teams in about three weeks. To be honest, that didn’t tarnish Shaq’s legacy. No, don’t know.

It’s all the same. People just don’t even really remember it or talk about it. Yeah, it just wasn’t important. Yeah, I don’t think I mean, like you say, some people think it does. Some don’t, but I don’t personally.

Couple of facts as well. When Gloria gets on Jeopardy and it has that foods that start that. Q That was apparently an actual category in October 1997, like today, I’m assuming they just did that based on inspired by real.

They watched it and that was it. So they went for it.

Yeah. Which is quite cool. And then also, which I quite like was when they put out the film, obviously it gets foreign language translations of the title or they don’t say the same thing. A lot of it, they change, they can’t jump, they can’t score, which has more like a connotation of like a goal and some of the translations and ended up going a bit further and you know, basically to score goals, the equivalent of putting it in, which then obviously had quite a few.

I wouldn’t mind to see if I could get some of those foreign film posters, Artesia. So yeah, a lot of it ended up being like the title literally translated as White Men Can’t Jump, which I thought is funny in itself because it has a totally different cause.

It’s actually obviously no need to explain it.

But the funny thing even about the cant score has nothing to do. You know, the title’s quite important to the to the movie itself and to the whole philosophy. And as soon as you change, can’t jumped, can’t score.

That’s not the title not being able to score slightly. She can’t jump and dunk.

The boat has got nothing to do with the score. And like in basketball, he actually really can score. Yeah, I think it’s kind of ridiculous. I mean, on a side note, that’s one of the things been say, you know, like an English speaker and living in another country, especially in France. They have a tendency to show more like dubs, sort of films rather than in the originals with subtitles and all that kind of thing. I’ve noticed it so many times where because obviously I speak French, but I say if I watch a movie, I know. So I’m listening to it in French with French people say, for example, or like I said at the cinema or something or around someone’s house. And I realized that the translation and sometimes on key lines just doesn’t mean what it’s supposed to mean.

So it’s a weird one with movies, you know, so that we have a lot of English, French going back from one once the other. Sometimes there just isn’t a word for something. Yeah, and a natural.

And also change and dubbing is trickier than subtitles. I guess from the point of view, if you’ve got the whole thing of it needing to kind of fit into the timing of the mouth moving roughly, whereas could subtitles something in two lines where in the actual thing he says one line, it’s not really an issue, you know. So definitely dubbing has a makes it trickier.

I can’t I just really can’t watch you in an English language film dubbed into French. I just can’t do it. I remember something like Lethal Weapon, you watching Mel Gibson when he’s sort of in his prime and can like a virile dude now. And it’s like he’s just got this like granddad dub David for a kid voice.

Yeah, I mean that as well. You get the kid voice, the kid friendly kid.

Who is the kid? Germany’s done by women, isn’t it. All right. Yeah. Well if it’s like a 10 year kid, it’s a woman doing the 10 year old kid’s voice. It’s not only it’s like some macho dude. Seems like it’s done by some dude who seems like he’s 18 about to just fucking die.

Yeah. And it just spoils. You lose the whole delivery of good actors. You know, when it’s dub, you just lose so much like you said, the stuff that’s lost in translation as well.

Another interesting fact is when Woody actually dunks on it, he dunks on a nine foot rim. Phil NAYLOR And actually during the film, I think human like there’s lot of gambling going on in the film. I guess the film’s about hustling, really, so you can imagine that just permeating the whole backdrop. So I think Woody and Wesley actually had a bet on whether Woody could dunk outside of the film and he did dunk on the 9th or the 10th. Well, I think the alleging goes the woody dunks and the knife at Wesley didn’t realize it is a nine foot ringside, lowered it down and then he paid off the debt. I don’t know how it then worked on from there.

Do you think he’s trying to. Colin, nine foot room when he’s messing the dunks up or directness and actual 10 foot room, you know, like when they have the best of the money they’ve won after the after they go in when they’re too on to contest, you know, cause he’s kind of like he’s kind of up there, but he’s kind of, you know, like dunking. I can’t remember whether it’s really off the rim and stuff is I think he’s pretty much this gone is playing clanging off the rim, isn’t he?

Yeah, he certainly is losing the grip and and it’s so that could actually be maybe a 10 foot room.

Not like a 9 fer. And it’s not on purpose. Duncan, that thing you basically go out and get the ball above it. He basically go get your fingertips. It kind of got to be you got about a foot above the rim. Yeah. And then your hands kind of cupped round the ball as well isn’t it. A probably even more. Yeah. So you’re looking for an hour and a half or something like that. You definitely gotta be able to have some hops. Sydney. I wonder how tall Woody is. He’s not sure. I don’t reckon. Sure. Should be getting maybe around six for something like that. I mean yeah. Maybe someone out there can fact check it.

The director was a guy called Ron Shelton who seem pretty interesting and say one of the scenes in it is when Raymond goes to get his gun out the car and he says he’s gonna shoot.

That’s when they do the first hustle. The other cause, kind of like Woody hustles Wesley Union in there, kind of opening scene. There was a comes and proposes to hustle with him. Yeah. And the first time they go and play there in like what? So, you know, I guess like rough kind of L.A. area’s playing and the guy kind of clocks that it’s a hustler that is a hustle because like I think he he sort of says, oh, I think you guys hustled me and well and Wesley, like, I don’t know this kind of white boy or whatever. And then I think Woody’s like, hey, man, what you never really panics is like what you’re doing.

You’ve got a wife and kids and stuff for me, just start confusing it. And then Wesley is always like to shoot this dude. Yeah. Talk about what it’s like to shoot him, trying to confuse him.

So funny scenes say Shelton. Our personal experience on his own time on the court said one Friday that he went to the park and it was all chained up. And he said to someone, what’s happened? They said, though some dude got shot, someone went to his glove box, got his gun. And then, you know, when when someone says that everybody goes running like in a film and the guy came back and shot the other guy dead and he was like, what’s the issue? And the guy said they had an argument over whether it’s a block or a charge. And then for people who aren’t bullies, like that’s quite a contentious issue, because basically when you if you’re going up for shot and the defensive play gets in position right in front of you, doesn’t move his feet, stay still. And you just run into him. That’s called a charge. So it’s like an offensive foul.

And that’s the most obvious, like most people agree. Yeah, if you like, you say you got your feet set. Yeah. But there’s little bits to it. Yeah. They changed it. Nowadays I’m under the rim or not. You’re not supposed to be in, you know, certainly zone in the certain zone. And nowadays, even in the NBA, you can jump straight up. Yeah. It depends what you do with your hands. Yeah. You can’t jump towards someone, but you can jump straight. If you’ve got your arms up. But they’re not forwards or adjusted.

The foot movement, there’s adjusted lots of little things too, which is probably good for us.

But I think like you said in the streets at least. Yeah. The only way you’re getting a charge is if you’re on the floor. Feet on the ground. Not moving and obviously not moving.

Otherwise, there’s no charge. It’s generally in the street where you don’t take a charge because you end up going backwards and sliding in those. You slide across the floor below, barely keep your head up out. Those you just going blam on the concrete.

It’s not something you see a lot, but either way, it’s a crazy thing at the bay for sure. But it’s kind of funny that he while funny and not funny in some ways. But he was obviously getting inspired by a lot of actual real life situations that it was coming across.

It’s one thing I wanted to see if anyone who I don’t if there’s any philosopher philosophies or philosophy experts out there a little while ago was actually listening to a podcast about a French philosopher. When I was driving, it dawned on me that always talking about was actually the philosophy of White Men Can’t Jump. That’s almost why I got this idea for the upside in my head, but I just can’t remember who the philosopher was. And I tried to go through the more well-known ones like Blaise Pascal rented their car. Even interesting people like camera and stuff, and I just can’t find person who whose philosophy matched up with Warhol winning and losing Sydney style things.

So if anyone, anyone here might be worth the property that we explain that.

Now, Gloria says sometimes when you win, you really lose. And sometimes when you lose, you really win. And sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie. And sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose. Winning or losing is all one organic globules from which one extracts what one needs. So I think really like I mean, we talked about this on several levels, not really related to the film, but the film obviously talks about it as the central theme of this film. And then also the directors, some of the other films that we’ll talk about when we try and wrap up and conclusion. But a lot of it’s really.

Yeah. Sometimes when you feel like you have in a win, you’ve really lost and sometimes it takes a while to actually see that. And in the moment, you you’re actually winning or losing. And then further down the line, sometimes you realize that was actually seem like a really shitty thing that happened, but it actually was for the best.

You know, like. Yeah. And I think really like kind of I think we’ve mentioned it a few times on the podcast and it’s something that comes up again and again with this whole kind of like symbolism of yin and yang. Like we said, whether you either cut it is male or female, the good and the bad, especially with the kind that, you know, everything, the symbol like a single symbol that has good and bad in it. And it kind of that kind of. Yates into this kind of, you know, directly, obviously into this quote and it’s the whole thing of like this winning and losing, and sometimes when you win, you lose and you lose, you win. You know, it’s encapsulated by that kind of yin yang philosophy, whereas in actual fact, in everything, there’s good and bad. So in a winning situation, there’s going to be a bit of losing. In a losing situation, there’s going to be a bit of winning. But then there’s also a kind of knock on effect of that of like say, I think we were talking about this with someone the other day where say you want to help someone out and you think I’ll do this to help them out. And your intention is totally good. And it actually ends up not helping them out. So there’s this whole thing of like good and bad intentions and what the actual effect is. And then the good and the bad within that. So that’s a whole nother kind of. Yeah. You know, I think to open up is.

And it’s also then becomes interpretations of intentions and things that you can think randomness and this is really good and someone could just interpret that as either good or bad, that you had bad intentions when you had good intentions. There’s so many layers to it. And I think this is totally gonna be butchering. I’m assuming it’s more sort of like Dao is philosophy where you have that like it’s called the Badger or they’re like the tri grams and they’re both sets of three, two lines. You sometimes see around symbols like yin and yang and there’s there’s three lines and they’re either full or unbroken lines say to go all the way round. You can actually get all the different sort of possibilities of having full or unbroken line. So I think there’s a different version. So I was looking at say, if you have like a full line is goods and the broken line is bad. Yes, very simplistic. So you can have a full line good intentions taken badly by someone and then it has good results or you can have good intentions taken badly by someone and has bad results. I of three levels. Yes. Dissent, good intentions is taken well by someone. Good results, good intentions taken well by some with bad results. So I don’t know how much of a correlation there is. You know, a lot of people talk about sort of religions and it’s about how pure your intentions are. But at the end of that, it’s like, well, if the result isn’t really based on your intentions, what’s the sort of value of having good intentions?

Yeah, I mean, I guess from one sort of point of view and I’d agree and I don’t know whether this is like the basis of it for religious stuff, but just from my point of view or just my basic logic or listening to it is that the only thing about it is the intentions part is kind of maybe the only thing that you can actually control. It’s like you can’t control any of the rest of it because like you said, it has these knock on effects. And that’s kind of the philosophy behind the film and a lot of light, basic kind of general philosophy arguments where there is no end and there is no answer because of these between your intentions and this and that. Whereas like that’s it. Yeah. That’s really the only thing that you can kind of control or base or base your thing on. You can at least look at it and be like, well I had good intentions or I had bad intentions. Yeah.

You know, more to go deeper on it. You know, the thing that sort of fucks with that bears you could be a thought. I had good intentions, but I realized later I actually didn’t. You know, you I’m sure you can be kidding yourself about your intentions as well, you know? Yeah, you can be thinking you’ve got good intentions, but you realize your mind’s kind of walked it to where you’d certainly question it at least.

Or like you said way at the time, you think it is. But then you realize maybe when you psychoanalyze it further down the line, when you’re slightly separated from the situation and it doesn’t have that kind of effect yet. You know, the infinite goes back to the influence and things like that as well. Like what you’re doing at the time, how you’re feeling at the time is definitely some deep, some deep questions, you know.

So I guess the bit that I’m like that makes slightly not less sense to me is sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie, I don’t know, say based on the whole yin yang thing. I think it’s this is Perry again, butchering philosophy. I think it was homies who created a gradient scale of things. So there isn’t just like light and dark or good and bad. There’s that grey area in the middle. You know, I think I scored a hermetic scale which I could have totally made up in my fucking mind. Yeah, I think I thought it bro bro philosophy to go along with our bro science. So, you know, there’s no point where something literally goes from light to dark or good to bad. And that’s kind of what yin and yang is about. So if you win or lose, I cant see the ever actually tie. Yeah.

I mean I guess you could. I mean one and I mean this isn’t necessarily why I actually think. But the first thing that comes to mind is the timing almost is that thing of like winning and losing at the same time. And that kind of aspect of like end each thing, you have some winning and some losing. That would be the kind of

Way that I would kind of read if, you know, I mean that or that or kind of read that part of the philosophy, if you literally take it obviously as a basketball film in a basketball game, you literally can tie the game, I guess in a bus where you actually can’t tie the game, you can not buy the game at the end of regular time or something like that. But then you’re going to play overtime here and in Street Art always be a win by you know, win by two points or something like two baskets. Yeah, I was gonna say in Basquiat. We actually can’t eat, can’t read, you can’t in football.

Yeah, well, we at. We are spending English. We may flip or soccer, whatever you want to call it. Can you tie in American football? I don’t know. Yeah. It’s been a long time, but I haven’t really watched it.

And baseball. I know there’s a lot of sports out there. Tying seems like a very English thing. Do. You know, like saying cricket. I think you can tie game work. Cricket is way too complicated for me to fully understand it. I think you can play the game flight three days and then it could be a tie at the end. Where can you tie an ice hockey to my overtimes? No, I’m pretty sure there’s overtime, I’m guessing. I think playing at least once you go to play offs of anything, you’re not gonna be a tie game. Oh yeah, exactly.

I say even in football or like we say soccer or whatever you want to call it when you’re going into knockout parts of the competition, World Cup, whatever it may be, F.A. Cup, all of that stuff. Someone’s got to win and you’ve got to play penalties, basically. If you go through the two extra time or whatever, whereas in a basketball game or something, you just keep playing overtimes until someone wins. You know, obviously it’s not like a free throwing shoe out or something like at the end of a game like the equivalent of penalties.

I guess, say, if we move it to soccer, football when you tie game, that can definitely be a win or lose for one team. You know, you can be up like four nil for the whole thing. And if the team comes back and gets forward in the last five minutes, I mean, football honestly is never that interesting. So I don’t know if that’s ever happened in the history, the game.

But conceptually, you say one nil, one bag, draw the game also like in your league table, you know, because you’re talking about league games. So you might actually need a tie to qualify for something or to move in front of another team or to be in those top few to go into the European like things or whatever at the end of the season or that kind of thing. So a tie can be a win from that point of view, I guess in basketball as well.

You can also you could be tied in eighth place to go into the playoffs. Right. And then you can have. Is it about home records?

I think it’s normally the record between the two teams. Is that the first thing? So first thing to record the two teams, if that’s a call, that is you’re at your best home record, I think, in the NBA.

Yeah. So either way, you can you can be typing and then someone does win or lose, don’t they? They’ll be like, this is how we decide who wins or loses out of this tight position. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess this is an interesting question because it is really for me like the fundamental laws of the universe and everything isn’t. So winning and losing yin and yang, so ones and zeros in computer coding, everything has that kind of body and mind. There’s all these things that are really I guess they’re part of the whole thing and maybe that’s where the tying comes in. But it’s a pretty complete sort of. You’re winning or you’re losing really, aren’t you? In a lot of times nowadays as a lot of sort of schools, you know, you participated, you get a medal like a participation medal or them before you get a medal, if you came for a second or third, let’s say, or something, I guess I see my son, he’s quite you know, he’s I mean, he’s only like four years old. But there’s definitely thing in his mind about the importance of winning in points we like data doesn’t matter. Just let that one go. It’s not that important. But like, well, it’s also part of evolution of the human race that you need to win. And some people think then just get bogged down in calling it winning where you like. Well, you still need to win. You still need to eat. You still need to sleep. You still need to.

Yeah, I guess it’s this whole thing about even the word winning and what, you know, cause it can kind of get into this like quote unquote, where you’re a winner or loser. And then that can kind of be, you know, slightly different to obviously just winning a game or losing a game. You know, it gets it gets a lot deeper and also can be kind of points of view and then gets back into this whole thing of someone could think, oh, you’re a loser because you do this, that and the other and you feel great about it and you don’t feel like it. But people think of you as a loser because of their priorities or whatever they think is important. I mean, I must admit that even though even playing basketball, if I came off the core and I felt like I played really well, even if I’d lost, I wouldn’t really beat down on it. You know, like for me, the essential thing wasn’t just winning by any means, you know, just me personally. That was that definitely wasn’t the be all and end all. Definitely. If I if I went home, I mean, I don’t know. I’m thinking more back to when I was actually playing organized basketball. So like I’m talking more when I was playing in the team. Yeah. Like, if I played a good game, I wouldn’t really be like, you know, I wouldn’t be so down on it. I don’t think I’d probably be that down if we won as a team and I didn’t play a good game. That’s what I mean. I don’t think it was all about like just personal stats or something. I wasn’t going that far, but if I felt like I played a good game, I would I would kind of be alright with you.

Say like for me I wouldn’t. But then I say, even if you think about how we run like hell to businesses and other things, I’m more like a strategy guy. And I think when we were playing basketball, say you specifically are staying with Ali, he’d be less strategy is quite, quite a skill player in his own way. But sometimes we put be safe playing two on two with him. He wouldn’t see how we had to adapt the strategy to beat someone. Where I could see that would be a. Ali, just do this. Like, just don’t know that guy shoot three and if he gets past you, I’ll try and deal with him then and we’ll just try let the other player shoot. He’s just not as good.

And we’ll just live with either the other guy gets. I feel like in my mind I’m more like a strategy person where for me playing it well sort of is equate to winning. Oh. So like playing chess and things where if I if I lose it, I might. Well, I don’t play very well. You know, I could have played better. And it’s not necessarily about literally peeing in the basket. It’s maybe more like overall, my strategy wasn’t very good. And that will annoy me more than literally the winning or losing. I mean, obviously, the other thing is it comes down to is the losing is where you do all the learning.

Yeah. I mean, no doubt if you were just winning something all the time, you’re not going to learn anything. Yeah, there’s no doubt. I mean are there anyone will agree with that? Yeah, it’s funny. I mean, they go. I mean is it just differences of different people? Yeah. I’m not trying to say. Like I said, I wasn’t sort of really too worried about like stats and shit, like how many points I scored if I felt like I shot the ball. Well from the point of view of my percentage of my shots were going in or even an eye is probably gonna sound slightly ridiculous. But even on like a slightly autistic level, I was kind of got some nice no look passes in and shit like that. I just have total joy in it. Kind of be what I mean is that like if things like that were going well I go home and I’d still be kind of driving home and quite pleased. Oh yeah. Even if I lost, you know, just because like there was nice aspects to the game, I felt like I played well from from those kind of points of view. I mean, I was a point guard that, you know, created. Yeah. Anyone that knows about basketball, basically that’s generally the smallest player on the team, but the one that brings it up. But you’re more of a passer than a scorer.

I mean, you know, that can go. So what can be debate? Both players say that position naturally, if we’re playing together, it maybe you’ll be more of a shooting guard. We were just a dumb male who makes it. Yeah.

So it makes it be different. F Yeah. If we’re playing, we both have that mentality. I feel for me that makes me like that’s a strategy position, especially if you’re like Street Art or you’re then sort of semi the coach. Yeah, you’re right. You’re running the game here. Whereas if you weren’t saying when you’re playing organized ball, you still got a coach, other people are taking some of that.

Yeah, the coach is still telling you the point guard like what play to run. You know, he’s lifted up his hands. Okay. We do that where two people screen off and do whatever they’re doing or something. So it’s less certainly less autistic when I’m saying about that, you know, compared to if you’re just kind of going with the flow and doing what you want.

And I guess when we’re playing street ball, generally it’s a lower level than when you’re playing organized book has just the fact that people got together and got organized. And anyone can come and play. Yeah. So when you’re playing street ball, it’s kind of you’re less organized and very generally a lower level or there’s more likely to be, say, one or two weaker players on the other team where an organized ball, that’s less likely. I mean, there’s going to be weaker players. They’re not you know, sometimes when you play Street Art or we’ll be like, oh, the other teams just got one dude is never played before because they just need to make up the numbers. And he’s a friend and they were just there. If you then have a good strategy like. Right. So we’re not going to defend that guy. We’re going to possibly double team their very best player. Let the guy who doesn’t know how to play. She is many shots as he wants. And then you kind of can adapt it from there where when it’s like organized indoor basketball, you’re less likely to have someone who’s never played basketball.

No. I mean, people might not have a great shot like, but they might not have a good outside shocks. They’re a big man, but they’re going to put it in the basket if they get it under the rim. There’s obviously those kinds of things where you can you can stand off of a big man if he’s out by the three point line or something, if he just can’t shoot.

That happens in yet another shout out at this point. Zee, Shana, thanks. Had a couple of shouts about God. Playing ball with him was quite scary because he was more rugby martial arts dude. So you just be going for a layup at the corner. You see him meaning into it is a solid line, strong guy and super physical. Do you like? Oh, he’s just going to come straight into me. I can be in midair and he’s going to body check me like playing rugby and we’re play not playing rugby and we’re on concrete and this is gonna really hurt. Shout out to.

We scored him heavy easy for his heavy D.

So I think well at least that’s, you know, sort of opened up a thing where people could even possibly get back to us. What they think about the winning or losing that yin yang has. It’s pretty interesting.

I think as a conversation it can just go on forever and it is the basis of the entire film. Like we said it from beginning to end. Yet it continually runs through every aspect and every poll, almost every scene of the film who comes out best.

It’s another one. I really kind of quite like that I find I end up thinking about quite a lot. Again, it’s Gloria. She kind of seems to come with a lot of sort of interesting philosophy in it and almost like a character initially comes across as slightly ridiculous.

So she’s all sort of a little bit maybe on my side in comp like a comedy character.

But then you realize she’s the one who’s actually sounds like she’s saying ridiculous things. But actually in the end, they’re quite deep questions, you know? So another one, she says, if I’m thirsty, I don’t want a glass of water. I want you to sympathize. I want you to say, Gloria, I to know what it feels like to be thirsty. I, too, have had a dry mouth. I want you to connect with me through sharing and understanding the concept of dry mouth.

That’s brilliant. And I think at that point I would. Doesn’t he? They have there’s a whole other conversation that goes on with different words like he’s talking about. He wants to get laid and it’s screwing. And she says screenings for carpenters.

So it goes back and forward. And at the end she was or something. Yeah. And then. And then. But then he’s like he says, I’m thirsty. I’m just basically saying if anyone in the room’s got a glass of water, I just love to have a sip.

Which I definitely went on to say it’s like a male female type thing because access.

Yeah, typical. It’s very light. Male, female, let’s say from a very globally sort of sexy if you want to call it sexist or something. But what’s the word? It’s not even just generalizing. Yeah.

Just like full on is more in a yin yang style. How you have male or masculine and feminine where it’s not really like you can be a guy and you can have feminine energy and less masculine energy and be a woman more masculine, more feminine. So I think when we’re talking about that, we’re not. Let’s talk about men and women, but there’s two sort of opposing styles of doing things. And I think they’ll be like this. This is basically Gloria saying she’s got a problem and it’s then does she want the other person to help us solve the problem and find a solution? Does she want the other person to sympathize or empathize with her and just say, I understand that as a problem, but you don’t necessarily want them to solve it for you? Well, I’m like, oh, I’ve got a problem. I’m not that big on getting sympathy. I’m not.

You know, less or feel sorry for Jamie so than someone solve this fucking problem for me, because I can’t I can’t do it. I’ve got too much other shit to do. Can someone just do this to me? I’m thirsty. Someone got a glass of water. I’d love a sip. For me, that’s like the ideal. I’ve got a problem. Someone solves it for me. I think that’s awesome.

Yeah. Like you’re saying, it’s not so much just on the straight sexist actually. Male and female. It’s more the kind of the black and the Y. Yeah. Like of the yin and the yang and the positive and the negative and all of that kind of side of things. And it’s just very what’s the word like. Stereotypical. But we’re not even saying it’s men and women. Yeah, but it’s kind of that kind of slightly falls into that stereotype if you want of where they talk about like male logic and female logic. It’s not one’s illogical and the other one’s logical, it’s these kind of stereotypes like a stereotypical kind of like more feminine, so more masculine.

So you would think that in general women you’d think that the women’s side of it would be for more sympathy and empathy.

I don’t think necessarily I would think it. I think that’s the stereotypical. Yeah, that’s what I mean is that that’s the kind of generally accepted stereotype.

They say, yeah, let’s be honest, like. I mean, you know, whether it’s stereotype or not, I know probably more guys who are more fucking windy and are looking for my earthy and empathy is probably almost if there is a stereotype or more of a thing one way or the other, maybe the other way around. Yeah.

I think you guys maybe in a more whinge needy and more needy.

And this is another terrible generalization. But there was that TV show Naked and Afraid. You know, they put a man and a woman who didn’t know each other, just like in some swamp somewhere else in a jungle. And generally, I mean, I think people would should be accepting this, but maybe they don’t. That men are generally physically stronger for size. Just do them on average. Yeah. And say women are just generally mentally stronger. Again, we’re doing crazy generalizations, but some points you have and we said about with the tattooing that we just generally find.

And this isn’t like a theory or something. This is literally just from tattooing men and women that women just generally deal with the pain better. That’s just an observation. You know, I mean, yes. Just the way it is. I’m not saying that every woman that comes in and there’s lots of other different things that come into play. Yeah, but that’s Jeff.

Definitely something that I just generally anything that’s observe because of stronger mentality is a mental game. When you come down. I think so, too. I think probably. I mean, again, it’s one of these yin.

I mean, is there the you know, is there something in the actual physical female kind of build up about the kind of the possibly even the possibility of being able to have a kid? And is there something in within that that’s actually physical? Who knows? But like you said, I would be more inclined to think it’s more the mentality than the less than the physicality. Or if you take two dudes, one who’s bigger, one who’s small, one who’s quite kind of quite, quite strong, and the other one who isn’t. Makes no difference as far as tattooing. It’s all about like you can just deal with the pain. Really?

I think if anything, the worst is really buffed up. Big dudes. I think if any, if I had to categorize someone who doesn’t do so well generally be that. And I was like, you know, got rugby players knee area. I think they would generally do way worse than, say, a small woman, say, in a mid 30s has had two or three kids.

Yeah. I mean, if we’re going to talk again, like just stuff that we’ve seen, I would definitely say that just as a generalization. And I said you can get like. A woman who comes in, he’s had loads of kids who can’t deal with it. And a big buffed up dude who can deal with it really well, there’s always kind of switching sides.

Would you think if you’re thirsty, do you want someone to give you a glass of water? Or do you want someone to sympathize, empathize and say that you understand?

I definitely want the water. Yeah, sure. Especially if I really had, say, a dry mouth in particular, like what she’s talking about. I’m not really bothered about the empathizing. I’m not saying that that maybe there aren’t situations. Maybe that wouldn’t be maybe nice. I’m not saying that. I just totally don’t care. But for sure if I’m just looking for something, I just want to drink.

So is this connected with the kind of the different mentalities of some people, especially like us? You end up with way too much shit to do and you’ve got so much shit to do. If someone else can find a short solution to take something off your to do list. Awesome. And then there’s a lot of people who don’t want to do very much. And their idea is I want to do as little as possible and get by. And I’m not saying us a worse lifestyle, but at the end of day you’re going to achieve less and you’re gonna get less done. When you have a lot of time on your hands, you’re not doing very much. That’s when your brain starts thinking these negative things. And then maybe you get more of an association where you want more sympathy and empathy. You might feel you’re not getting it, possibly when you’ve got loads of shit to do. You don’t have time to generate negative thinking. And then you like, oh, awesome, someone’s got a glass of water. That means that I have to go to the shop and buy it so I can do X, Y and Z instead.

Yeah, I think that probably definitely plays a part. Like I said, I think, you know, like the empathy and stuff is maybe better than nothing. Yeah, but it’s not what is going to you know, just from my point of you sort the problem out and if I’ve got a problem, I just want the problem solved.

Yeah, but that almost goes back into that winning a losing thing where it then goes into your intentions because you can be like, oh, I want a glass of water and they looking for sympathy and empathy. You’re like, where’s your fucking glass of water? And your mind might. That’s better for you. You’ve got your water now.

So where’s that? It might not be what they’re looking for.

Yeah, it’s almost like what Gloria is saying here. It’s almost got nothing to do with the glass of water, has it? Yeah. You’re looking for something totally that’s so energetic and spiritually. Obviously not getting in your life, aren’t you? You’re kind of the Gaza war could be anything. Yeah. I mean, I guess this quote then goes into rolls into the film. She’s saying that manual is trying to solve women’s problems and then she calls it like omnipotent.

That’s a valley.

And I mean, again, you know, like she she’s saying that I mean, the funny thing about this movie as well and it just made me think about it, is there’s a lot of like black dudes saying stuff about white dudes wide saying fairly, which a lot of the time, you know, like a lot of these things may be in, a lot of situations just wouldn’t be acceptable. But nowadays you can pray like this and you probably couldn’t make the film. But I think even if someone from now at they say like a younger person or something watches, it will just from my personal opinion and observation, they seem to be able to put all of that stuff in without it really being a problem. So like we’ve said, like racist stuff, sexist stuff, you know, there’s that part when you’re Woody and Wesley clash, when they’re in the car before the whole the White Men Can’t Jump quote where he’s like, well, you’d rather look good in and lose than look bad and win. Yeah, exactly. The kind of difference between white and black kids and stuff like that.

I’ll be a hard sell put out that easily.

I think so. I think a lot of people would take offense. And that said, it’s kind of like they’re treating it in a way where it’s like I think the reason why maybe it’s slightly more acceptable or say like the reason why I can accept it and watch is because you get both sides. Yeah. You got the white dude and the black dude, the male and the female, the winning and the losing. You know, I mean, it’s not like it’s a racist movie.

It’s anti white dudes or something, even though the name of the movie is White Men Can’t Jump. That’s it’s not just you know, it was just a movie about how White Men Can’t Jump or something. And it was just about like negative connotations with white dudes. It’s not going to be the same the same thing. And then it wouldn’t be watchable. And this is, I think, maybe kind of a part or an aspect of the beauty of the film.

I guess that’s something with stand up comedy.

The comedy wouldn’t do something. A lot of other things can’t.

The negative for where people get upset with comedy is like, oh, everything’s funny until they’re talking about what affects me and then I’m not taken. That’s funny, but that’s what you have to accept that everyone’s gonna get it. So when I get it. I’ve got to live with it. And then that goes back to the whole playground rules. If someone goes like says something about you and you get upset, you just gotta possibly look yourself and not take yourself so fucking seriously.

You know, things that you learn from when you’re a kid until I mean, when you’re talking about the that it’s so black.

Why? And then say Gloria’s Puerto Rican, isn’t she? So I guess that somewhere sort of in between. Yeah. In between the gray area maybe it’s that it goes on the other quite where they’re in the car and they’re sort of they put on Jimi Hendrix and he goes look man you can listen to Jimi but you can’t hear him. There’s a difference man. Just because you’re listening to him doesn’t mean you’re hearing him. And then that is going slightly back into a race thing as well. Not that I don’t think when you get particularly bogged down on that, but obviously it is a part of the whole thing with the film that they’re trying to make a point and talk about these things, aren’t they? They’re not just putting out there for no reason. They’re quite so.

Well, thought out and what immediately comes up as a knock back on that is like the rest of Jimmy’s band’s white.

Yeah, that’s what I think Gloria might have been up in the movie. And then, you know, it was Lee’s kind of takes offense and says, no, there noise just like a photo. And it’s not real bad stuff. But I mean, anyone who knows anything about Jimmy knows cause, you know, we know who’s in the band with him and they were all white. It’s as simple as that.

But that’s I mean, the film’s quite layered. You know, even I is doing these things. I don’t think people. I don’t think you could look at it and go, oh, this is just really racist or they’re being fucked up. Because if you look at the the arguments and even the points that just seem to come off quite light like that, it is quite layered and it’s well thought out and structured.

Yeah, it’s definitely being staged specifically you’d think chose Jimmy because he’s a black dude with a white baby and that’s what it is. You could have chosen a black a black dude who only played in a black band or something. I mean, that would have been probably easier to find almost than that.

Yeah, because I saw some people actually talking about this online. They’re saying it seemed like a weird choice for him because why didn’t he choose something like Public Enemy that was more sort of of the time, more current and they were still not explaining layering of. That’s the importance. Jimi, it’s like a black guy with a white band and then with the dynamic of those three in the car, like all the different layers of and playing like rock music, which is kind of like, you know, kind of white world.

But then again, if you start thinking, well, where does the rock come from? Yeah, the blues and on and on and on. Chasing the blues back to Africa and all of that kind of thing.

So it’s quite I thought, is actually a really well chosen person to have in that quote made it super layered. Why would anyone how could anyone get upset about that, really? Because I mean, people can get upset about it because they’re just not using their fucking brain. It’s then got Gloria not being black or white and not giving a shit about the whole thing. And then you can have people on either side caring about it, not caring about it.

This is the thing about the movie. And this is, I think, part of the reason why we liked it so much outside of the fact that it’s about something that we love with actors, that we love. And it’s got a great soundtrack. And all of those aspects, it’s more that philosophical basis of it and the thinking about it and how layered and how well thought out is. Yeah. You know, it really is sort of something that sets it apart. And I’m presuming that it’s these elements to it that made like what you’re saying at the beginning about say why Kubrick or someone likes it so much, you’re not going to touch that.

I doubt he’s a street boarder with Kubrick. I’d quite like to. I’m sure we’ll be doing some kind of coup because talking before about maybe moon landings and space odyssey, there’s quite a lot of things about that. But we stay here and actually live where we lived in the UK, lived round the corner from us and sometimes we’d drive in. You could drive down his gate like in through his drive. And we just sit outside Stanley Kubrick’s house and just sit in the car and just smoke weed. That’s one of the coolest things you can do. But I mean, he’s just right up there. Film direction, if he likes sound like, well, us, that’s good enough for me.

I mean, I obviously that’s just a theory that I’m thinking that the reasons but like I said, I’m doubting it’s just because he’s like really into like hip hop and basketball. Yeah. I’m guessing that it’s more because a philosophical thing. And then just the kind of I think you mentioned to me at one point about sort of like this perfect storyline sort of style does impact the feeling.

I was at the right, I was back to the future. I actually just thought it was on this.

I mean, it’s got a pretty good storyline. I mean, we’ll probably just go for one more quote and then we’ll tie arcs out these things. I think we’re getting into a sort of in the conclusion it and really there’s I mean, this one’s a bit of a back and forth where Sydney like Wesley’s character says, Billy, I have four words for you. Listen to the woman. And Billy then says, what the hell does that mean? Listen to the woman. I tried to listen to the woman, and you’re the one to talk me out of it. And then Sydney says, Wait a minute, I didn’t took you out of anything. I present you with an option and you took it. I guess what, he’s what? Billy’s not doing that. You know, we get into that sort of in the in the wrap up, which I guess we’re kind of getting into now, is the real attention to detail of the practicalities of running a hustle. So maybe think about things like Paul Newman in The Hustler. And then there’s a sense that both men love basketball too much to leave it behind. But only Sydney really has the skills to do something else for money. We should talk about freezing construction and things like that where Billy has no other skills and he can’t really get beyond the hustling and can’t sort of get out of his cycle of losing more money than he wins, repeating the cycle and then begging Gloria for sort of second chances. And he’s obviously he’s not listening to women. He’s not seeing this cycle and realizing at a certain point she just can have a breaking point. She’s done, you know, and it’s getting closer and closer. And obviously the conclusion of the film is that’s what happens here or in general.

I prefer film doesn’t have just the classic predictable Hollywood ending kind of good guy wins. It’s all happy to guys. Both come out super good and that’s it because they sound like they’re kind of the conclusion. Almost been the. Okay, so like at one point, Gloria leaves. Woody Wesley helps em like get her on the show that she wants to be on. She wins. It wins loads of money. So all of a sudden as a as a couple, at least for the first time in their lives, they pay back the money that they owe to these debt collectors for whatever, which is another theme that kind of runs through the movie. So they’ve got all of the problems that you’d think behind them. And then obviously, where’s the. Has this robbery at his house. He comes and gets Billy, but Billy’s kind of. Well, essentially promised to Gloria he won’t play again. And that’s the kind of important point because you could have just had that theme running without Billy, really promising. Promising or he even promises. And she’s okay with it. Whereas as soon as he says that he’s gonna go and play and he’s like he owes her, he owes him this position that Betty’s in. You could have still had a kind of Hollywood ending where she lets him off. They get the money. Everyone goes off. That’s the last game he plays. And that’s it.

I think be the same. No, when rounds. I think Wesley Basquiat character would have probably not played that last game and and just gone with his wife.

That’s kind of like. Yeah. What he’s sort of saying. Like you said, it kind of almost becomes where Woody’s character is, this kind of lovable, loser style guy where nothing really goes. Right. But he kind of he generally tries to take the moral high ground and he’s always trying to help his buddies out rather than trying to help himself out sort of style character, you know, which again, is like a you know, you see that in films a lot. And it’s that lovable kind of hero who who isn’t the classic hero.

He’s got a lot of wear wins. Pretty much sort of a loss in disguise because it’s that part. It’s all a small part of the cycle of mistakes. You can’t stop making sure you keep doing and making the same thing. He’s got more heart than head where Wesley Snipes character Sydney basketball’s a means to an end. You know, there’s more of a sense to find his way to the end. Yes, he could probably. I mean, maybe I don’t know whether he could let basketball go at the end, but whether he needs to be hustling of basketball, I don’t know.

I think you do get the impression that both of them had that kind of something that’s just, you know, because even though Wesley’s got all this money when he finds himself in the share, the thing he turns to is playing this big game against Sydney. You know, this legendary they are the duo or whatever, rather than him with his building business and stuff like that, you know, rather than demanding the money through that. I guess that’s maybe partly just from a practical point of view, that’s the way he can earn big money super quick. So maybe that’s it.

But it’s still kind of just goes back to basketball again. White Men Can’t Jump and Shelton, as some of his other movies are more about men whose personal shortcomings prevent them from making it big. And then there’s that theme of winning and losing like in general. So there’s Bull Durham, which ends before the season’s even over with, like Kevin Costner’s journey, man catcher in minor league baseball, retiring after helping a younger, talented player sort of make it to the big leagues. And then there’s also tin cup, which sort of ends with Costner’s golfing character wrapping up a run at a tournament with a totally epic meltdown. That she seems like a loss in the end is actually really a win. And then you get the White Men Can’t Jump, which ends with the street will win, which seems like a win on paper. But actually in the end, it’s really a loss.

He loses his girl, but then it’s like we say that this whole thing is it is actually a loss because maybe just the two of them just wasn’t just wasn’t going to work. And this is what needed to happen for them to be able to break that cycle.

Like we said. So but then was Shelton films almost. He’s got that theme running through what Gloria says into this film. Then also then that’s a theme of the collection of his sports films where it’s like they all have this different set for the day. He’s showing the different ways of losing and winning, possibly the different permutations. He’s got three ones which works really quite differently there.

And he’s kind of using sports as a life.

I don’t know what the word is, but representing worth quite an easy way to actually give it a physical winning and losing. Yeah, it’s a smart way of doing it. He’s like, oh, yeah. He won that game. It’s not very ambiguous here. You want to see less elements than you can win or lose things off the back of that. So I think so wraps up the film. But then what it made me think about, though, he might just talk about quietly at the end, is that have in any sport. There’s you know, there’s a lot of athletes who basically really sort of invested themselves in getting to that dreams of glory, reaching the pros. But then at the end, they just didn’t quite have that last one per cent of the talent, the mental side of it or the luck or all three had an injury.

Yeah, I totally make it to the pro level. And I know we’ve seen a lot of people who maybe weren’t quite as good as they wanted to be in certain sports almost. You know, we’re on the brink of making it. And then they’re then pushing out into their kids and the next generation and here saying, oh, you know, you could be like a pro football or like a pro cricket player or pro solo, all these things, you know, like. Menu of options out there and in they’re just getting more pushy because they didn’t really make it themselves. And I guess for us it’s different because even though we played a lot sports and been in that, we were nowhere near being on the borderline of pros. Yeah, any basketball, skateboarding, surfing, martial arts, sort of an all right level is sort of all of them in some ways. But there was no talk of ever making like a career out of actually doing it. I know for sure.

Well, for us it’s just always been. Oh yeah. Really when it comes down to it. That was the only thing we ever really any good at. Yeah. Really. Or really good. Or whatever however you want to put it. You know something where you thought you could actually do something with it without you can just be like, um, professional offices.

Now you can work someone else’s professional artsy work for yourself where you can’t just be like I’m just now a professional basketball flack as you’re just not unless you like Will Ferrell in semi pro you get traded for like a a washing machine.

I’m saying like, you know, the funny thing that comes to mind now is that you can be like with things like Instagram and stuff like that, you know, say like if I chose something like a model before to be like maybe, say, a pro model, you have to be accepted into, I guess, an agency. Yeah. And do all those kinds of things, whereas things like Instagram and social media are starting to change that, whereas say someone who skateboarder, but they’ve got a lot of a following and it’s not so much because they’re a technically great skateboarder. I mean skateboarding is a little different to a lot of other sports and it’s maybe going down a whole nother path because it’s kind of a lot of like kind of competition and are like kind of mixed into it. Yeah. But you know what I mean, like something where maybe you just didn’t have the actual level that is required because that’s an element to it. You couldn’t be a pro skater before if you just weren’t a good skater. You could almost earn a living now off of being a skater without being a good skater because of your following or even the way you look or I don’t know just the style of other or the things you manage your social media. Exactly. Stuff like that. So that’s definitely starting to change. You know, another thing where social media is just culturally just changing everything.

I think we sort of wrapped up the film.

So I think the only other thing is if you haven’t watched it go and fucking watch a great film, hopefully you won’t be offended or anything like that.

I think some of you think, why was I offended by that? Anyway, I hope you enjoyed that one. Take easier. Yep. Thanks for listening. Oh yeah. And shout out to Kai’s mum who said I sounded like Mick Jagger. Assuming that as a compliment, it might not have been. See you guys later here.

As you mentioned at the beginning of the episode to promote the launch, The Pistache Podcast were given away around two and a half thousand pounds worth of original artwork that we’ve created, which is well over 3000 U.S. dollars worth. So to enter, go to our website Pistacheartists.com where you’ll find the full details that prizes you can win, how to enter and the full terms and conditions of the giveaway. Competition is super simple and soon it’s not gonna take you more than a couple of minutes to complete. There’s quite a few prizes. A chance of winning is pretty high. You can take part in the giveaway until early August. If you’re listening to this before then you really should enter. You might win a really special piece of art for your collection. Or you could give it away as a gift and have someone love you for the rest of eternity. Good luck.

Share Pistache: