#7 Can Meditation Boost Creativity?

Can Meditation Boost Creativity

Pistache Podcast #7 – Can Meditation Boost Creativity? Can Meditation make you more Creative, or are Creative people just more likely to try Meditating? Nick & Jamie do some research into studies on this subject, and add some of their own meditation experiences into the mix. Will they find that mediation is useful for creativity or is it just a way to try and achieve enlightenment?

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Can Meditation Boost Creativity Episode Transcript

This transcript of the Pistache Podcast #7 was generated using artificial intelligence. It’s not perfect, but hopefully it helps if you need it.

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We’re gonna have to try and feel a bit more upbeat for this Banksy. We literally just got out of sauna, steam room, big jets on our shoulders making us chill out session while we plan our, you know, world domination through podcasts and our thing. So basically, this episode is going to be again on this creative tip and working out if we can make ourselves more creative by doing certain things. So does meditation make you more creative or a creative? People more likely to meditate? So it’s similar again to the shows, the upsides we had on cannabis and absinthe. But this time, we’re not really talking about introducing foreign substances into our bodies and effects of those. We’re basically just working with what’s already in our bodies and kind of controlling it or while not controlling it.

But yeah, kind of something like you say that isn’t like an external.

We’re not introducing anything else is working with internal. Yeah, I got thinking about meditation, its effect on creativity. So one of my favorite podcasts is a Tim Ferriss show where if you don’t know that he interviews top performers to sort of find out what their routines are, their rituals and the case to set their success. And basically he’ll then test things on himself or just see if there’s correlations where lots of people do the same thing. One thing I noticed that he obviously talks about is that probably around 90 percent of the guests do some kind of form of meditation or mindfulness practice. Often first thing in the morning and most of them are what you consider creative, even if it’s not in the art space, could be science, business or other areas where creativity is obviously a valuable asset.

Yeah, I mean, I guess it’s a valuable asset in pretty much everything in all domains is by kind of being creative with what you’re doing, thinking a bit outside the box. That sort of a side of creativity.

Yes, it’s creativity in whatever you’re doing, isn’t it? It can even be creative where you’re working out what your budgets are if you run a small business and what’s the best places to spend them and not going down the traditional just like learn it and then replicate and do it.

And yeah, yeah, like you say, thinking outside the box and being creative with all elements of everything.

So I think probably the best way to start with. I mean, I think everyone knows what meditation is. Essentially, it’s sort of mindfulness practice where you’re generally seated or potentially lying down and you’re just using different techniques to potentially in chief achieve enlightenment.

Would that be the actual I guess that’s probably at least with would say traditional or let’s say like the kind of it seems like it’s kind of stemmed out of India and Asia and those more Eastern philosophies, I guess you call it. I mean, it seems like, you know, like certain it’s a it’s an integral part of Buddhism. Yeah. It’s what most people kind of equate it to, I guess. Yeah, but it’s practice and I guess Buddha and Buddha famously sitting under the Bodie tree and meditating and achieving enlightenment.

So, I mean, I guess for us it without a tie in because we started talks bit about martial arts, but say the first ten years we practiced it, it was Chinese martial arts first of all was like a shell in style, then evolving into studying taichi. So you’re getting into that Buddhist doust whole area.

It was quite an integral part of what we were doing on top of it, like you said, maybe a bit more so than with most other martial arts. Yeah, or certainly nowadays anyway. More for a lot of philosophy.

Yeah, well I guess a lot of people, especially with kung fu is within MMI. It’s considered almost like a bit of a joke and I guess you do get quite a lot of jokes styles, but the style we practiced, the sparring style was Tai Quan dose is very useful for sort of dynamic kicking. You learn a lot of things just by doing insane amounts of repetition, and that’s basically how you drill technique. There’s plenty less sparring than when we moved over to jujitsu, judo and all that, where it’s very heavily sparring based on what we did was.

Yeah. You’re doing a certain amount of technique.

But like you said, you’re like the main emphasis is pretty much on sparring. And I guess that is also the nature of the softer elements of judo or something where you can spar harder without necessarily hurting each other so much. I mean, obviously start in judo and you get a lot of like shoulder and neck and because of the projections maybe. Yeah. And then into the jujitsu and Brazilian jujitsu and stuff. You can definitely spar harder, they say.

Yes, just getting punched in the face. So yeah.

Just not the hard like knock on knock someone. They block it with an elbow. Your foot’s double the size within getting into those.

We also got into I guess partially through sort of all the Wu Tang stuff. The really specific kung fu films like the Six Chambers of Shell and all that stuff where there’s a lot of kung fu. And obviously it then is connected to the meditation sort of aspects of it. I remember like when I was sort of crazy on the confer and just reading Bruce Lee books and everything to get my hands on. And just being a student. So a lot of free time on my hands. No kids, no bills to pay for easy lifestyle. I used to practice, say, three or four hours kung fu a day and then I’d sit there and meditate tea ceremonies fighting with a nun chucks during chee concrete.

You know, just but it was a real integral part of our lives.

What I realized is I’d never actually had any really formal meditation training and no one actually really showed me what to do.

Well, like I said at school, we were lucky enough, which is I don’t know, it’s probably not very rare nowadays because they seem it seems to be really infiltrating academic and school, even young kids like your little boy. Stuff like that. But we were lucky enough just to have. It was a Hari Krishna center, wasn’t it? I think that’s certainly from my memory was I think it was George Harrison’s Harry one or the main one that he created was just around the corner from our secondary school. So from the age of 11, we were there. And because it was a very diverse kind of as far as religion and all that kind of thing you could dabble into and there would be meetings in the mornings on maybe once or twice a week.

Why? Remember what I did? And I’m assuming have been the same in you’re at school as the chaplain at the school he did every Thursday. He’d do like a lunchtime meditation. I.

I never did that. I didn’t like him.

Yeah, that’s what I did. And I did that regularly. I also liked it because you didn’t have the regular school lunch and they had like some kind of soup, some bread and cheese and stuff. So it was partly I liked the food, but you basically just went in a room and you sat down and you just tried to just sit there and be quiet for I guess it is very 20 minutes to half an hour, but there is no guided.

Yeah, that is funny because when like I said, I I’d never did it with the chaplain. I don’t think I did it with the Harry Krishnas. And they actually guided us through a fair bit as far from my vague memories of it.

You know, they were it was a bit more similar to some of the experiences like where I’ve gone and done like meditation weekend or gone to like a Buddhist centre, a shout out to Isaac gangs. And I went and did a few of them with him. Well, this was a bit later on when we were in our early 20s where we’d go and it was a bit more guided. I remember going to a couple a Zen Buddhist ones with him, with monks, various kinds of places. But yeah, they did actually. They they definitely I remember the first time hearing like, you know, about the kind of envisaging like concentrating on your breath. Yeah. Envisaging a collar coming in and the collar car going out, expelling negative, inhaling pure you know, all that side of things barely breathing. Keep breathing. Definitely.

Some of those things I got introduced to at school essentially began adult sites when martial arts very much finished schools and it became serious remembered day, maybe a year or two Thai boxing when I was 12 or 13. But it wasn’t anything where as soon as he finished school, it’s pretty much that three times a week come rain or shine doing things like that. And then also I found I can meditate quite easily compared to some people where they’d find it quite hard work. And I think it is also from probably dropping acid a few too many times. I feel like I could shut my eyes even now. And it’s like a bit like psychedelic TV where I find it’s almost quite easy to do what people would consider meditation, whether I’m actually doing it right or not, or if there is a way of doing it right or wrong.

Yeah, probably not really. But yeah, I know what you mean. Like it makes me think that certainly on some of the ones where I went with Isaac and we did kind of like a retreat weekend or those kinds of things in these Buddhist temples, there would often be like kind of chat sort of time afterwards where you could speak to the to the monks or wherever. And we noticed that we seemed to be the only people who were there who were just probably already the only people there who had any experience in that kind of thing. Most people were new to it. But I remember this vividly. And Isaac, you as well, and people were expecting something to happen like immediately. They were very kind of almost not disappoint. It is the word, but they definitely felt like as if all of a sudden they were going to get just get some crazy like something out of it. And I think a lot of them were going in slightly. Maybe through because they were depressed or they were ill, those kinds of things.

You know, a lot of I guess in the West you get a lot of Haitians, I guess in the West, a lot of it is people use these things as a last resort. Right. When they yell, they’re like, Oh, I’m going to go in. I tried all these traditional well, traditional westernised ways of trying to heal myself. None of this works. I’m just going to go for the wacky meditation and yoga. Yeah, exactly. Anything. I guess the difference what I do like about things like martial arts is you can go and you can be with a teacher and you can immediately feel like a if you’re rolling around doing jujitsu someone, are they just manhandling you in no effort? You can feel how good they are with a lot of these things. Your is the teacher good or not? It’s quite hard to gauge if you don’t have any reference points. Am I learning something worthwhile here? Is this yoga teacher any good? Is this yoga teacher terrible? Is this meditation practice?

Yeah. Is it actually just some bullshit and someone who’s just getting some money or. Yeah, I’m going to heal you and hear someone who’s like half our age who has just gotten into it and then all of a sudden they’re healing you. Yeah. Those kinds of things. And then I think we mentioned it before as well with like a lot of the Reiki and stuff like that, even though I’m sure like the actual traditional practice has a lot of value, but they just kind of become popular and a bit all of a sudden the U.S. yoga is probably the biggest culprit within that, where people go to Sri Lanka for a month and then their yoga teacher is dead like 200000 curators. It’s nothing. It’s like what you said. Again, you mentioned it before of the 10000 hours in martial arts and then eastern kind of things.

I guess the 10000 hours is so much hard if you do something physical, like I thought about all the years of martial arts I did. And I think I can’t claim I’ve done about 4000 hours realistically. I thought maybe 40 percent to being a master or being decent for sounds about right. But, you know, 40000 or 10000 hours of doing something else isn’t actually that much. Yeah. Yes. A lot easier to do. It’s not it’s not physically stress.

Yeah. So you could spend hours at a time. It sometimes even requires hours at a time. Whereas like you said, you just can’t do that with something like um like physical or martial law.

Yeah. And I guess my point where I did push my body to a point where I was doing that march and literally not take any days off, that’s when I had luck. So a physical, mental total meltdown and got to a point where I couldn’t breathe, walk a do any of the basic things you sort of take for granted just by pushing it way too far, which was then obviously it wasn’t just that, but as my mind saying, well, I need to get stronger because I’m getting older. And our best friend Alex had a rugby accident, went into a coma, and his quality of life definitely nowhere near what it was before. And we’ll probably get into that possibly with his with his wife. And there’s, you know, some quite interesting things to talk about, maybe on a different episode so you can go to find that. But while saying that is connecting, when we couldn’t do martial arts, my wife can beat me up three times a week in a like li, you know, legally insurance and all of those things. She got less interest in doing martial arts as well. And then she moved over into more pure yoga. And she was saying to me when I was lying, you can do anything. She’s like, Oh, this is gonna be really good for you. And I knew it was an event. She got down to shout out to shop in mind who is super good yoga teachers. Yeah, I just went down there and first time it just right lie on the mats. Second time was sit down. And those things for me were actually very physically, mentally stressful, even though they seem quite basic.

And I couldn’t do the Ashton yoga that my wife was doing, which is pretty dynamic and more the younger, more so I was really demanding. Yeah, I was with the old people doing half the yoga, which from my understanding is sort of a physical set of exercises that prepare you to be able to meditate better. So it is more meditation focused at the end of the classes. We do a lot of meditation and also shout out to lots of who would be their replacement teacher who’d come when they were on holiday or doing retreats. And I found with her I’d get into almost a a deeper meditation state and I found it’s super beneficial just for getting out of the Mai Il, which then resulted in anxiety sort of state. And for me I was like, Ra, I don’t know if there is a real aim of meditation, but for me it is basically can I just make myself feel more anxious and just get my thoughts out of my head as quick as possible. So I remember listening. So they said, oh, just treat it as like a mental bicep curl. So when the thoughts come in, you kind of do bicep curl and just auto push them out of your brain. Right. And even if they just keep coming in, you just keep pushing them out. So you create a bit like we did with Charlene Kung Fu through repetition, something that your brain then does on autopilot. So when these negative or blocking thoughts come in, my brain would just kind of become instinctual.

Yeah.

But hopefully as a maybe even if it is only 20 or 30 percent, the time when you’re in a super fragile state, that makes a big difference.

You know, two or three times out of ten, you can just and even having even if you don’t even get to that point, but having something which, you know, helps in any way is crazy important.

Yeah, those tools are what it’s all about just for getting ahead in your life and I guess some martial arts. Always feel like people should do martial arts and those very judgements that try to be less judgmental, but I feel like it has. It builds a framework for learning things in a different way to almost anything else you can do. You can do. You can apply that framework to anything. Yeah, I know what you mean. So it’s useful. So I kind of used that framework to try and heal myself mentally and physically and get back on my feet. And I used the martial arts framework, but then I was applying that to how can I use meditation as part of that toolbox? Right. So obviously all of it’s very, very connected. And when we serve with this podcast, we realized we’re going to focus more or at least a section of certain episodes going to focus more on. Can you just make yourself more creative by smoking weed or doing meditation or other things? We’re going to do research in. I did start thinking, wow, I mean it. Can you make yourself more creative by meditating? Because I’d never used it for that tool. I was using it for other other purposes. And I doubt most people’s focus on meditation is can I become more creative by doing this? Obviously, as a lot of top performers who are using meditation and it’s probably potentially enhancing their creativity.

Yeah, and helping probably the obvious things is like kind of helping to concentrate or learn almost how to concentrate on one thing, those kind of elements to it. You know what I mean? Or like almost clearing your brain of all the other shit that’s just going around in it and kind of help him with focus. It’s probably the word I was looking for. I think a lot of people use it in that way. Yeah, actually, like you said, performers and stuff. But then that’s also that’s an element to it. But like we said, we’re kind of trying to look at the specifics of like creativity. Yeah.

In this one can you just meditate and enhance your creativity? Yeah, because I guess it’s different for us. Like we actually. Often you have to do creativity on demand because it’s artistic creative projects, specialty events.

Yeah. Where you’re literally you’re just there and you got to do it.

Yeah. You just gotta suddenly make something happen. It’s gotta be good cause because often the clients paying you a pretty decent amount of money to do things to impress their clients. So you’ve got to make their brand look good. We’ve got to make ourselves look good so people want hire us again. And you suddenly just got to I mean, a lot of it is preparation to then an experience here as you go along to be in that moment where you’re like, I’ve got four hours, I’ve got these tools. I’ve got to do something amazing with that. And I’m starting from zero.

What’s the best thing I can do? You’re under no circumstances. And I guess like you said, I mean, certainly experience helps with it. But like almost every year, no less, we end up doing repeat events with people. That certainly makes it easier and makes it that we can be like, well, this was a good thing last time, let’s do that. But let’s maybe do it like this this time and steadily get better. But what I meant say is outside of that, even if we’re doing a similar thing, i.e. customizing shoes, each different event, the circumstances, the brand, the people, the type of event, the environment.

Yeah, all of that changes because we do have some clients where the thing is they want us to be super creative, they want everyone to notice us are doing it. And then for some brands that we don’t actually say that we work with, we’re behind the scenes doing stuff for that brand and they specifically want it to be almost seamless work that looks like it’s just their brand doing everything. But there are consultants like us behind the scenes adding in creativity and then doing this work.

Yeah. And some sort of really do sort of stifle the creativity i.e. it’s so like black and white kind of you can do this, but you can’t do that. You have to do this, get this checked and then other ones just kind of really less like what you think would be best ly ask come to us a lot more if you know. I mean that makes a huge difference. Yeah. Obviously, you know it’s logical.

Yeah. So I think that sort of flows into a question of what style of meditation is best for creativity. Right. And I think there’s lots of different styles of meditation, but I think you can possibly break them down into two groups where say, well, you hear a lot of creative people, especially in Hollywood, they’re all into transcendental meditation, say like David Lynch, I read a good book he had on creativity. And I think it’s cool catching the big fish. It’s quite a simple book, but he talks about creativity, meditation, all these these different aspects in it. But I think transcendental is kind of almost like a brand where a lot of these things like yoga, meditation, they then get branded or structured into certain things. I think really what you have is you have open monitoring meditation, which is sort of involves observing phenomena in the present moment and keeping your attention flexible and unrestricted where you’re kind of just letting the things happen and let your things flow in and out and try and be on judgment.

Love it. Right. Yeah.

And it’s just this is what’s happening. I’m just accepting what’s happening.

Essentially that kind of like let a thought come in. Don’t push it away, but don’t concentrate on it. Let it flow in and flow out. Kind of.

Yeah. And not even that. It’s always like just naturally enough I Sydney which I find that quite challenging to do personally. I know some people say, oh, you know. Did meditate for two hours and somehow I don’t know if I’m just very shit today or if other people are like got superpowers, but some people think they seem to say they can get in like a mind the state constantly for like a long period of time where I find meditation for me is way more useful if I do like most micro meditation is like micro dosing. When people talk about drugs where five minutes or even 30 seconds every day for me is better than trying to two hours. Once a month.

I know it is hard to go for extended periods and long meditations.

Yeah, I think there’s obviously a value in that, but I just don’t understand it and possibly my mindset doesn’t need to be done that way. Maybe.

Yeah. I mean, like you said, I think maybe some people just might naturally find that aspect of it easier or harder. Depending on what type of person they are. But I would have thought it really comes down like with anything to experience of doing it and doing it all the time and just getting better, we say. Like with anything, the more time you put in it, kind of the better you’re going to get.

A lot of the time, a lot of times in art, people be like, oh, I just have to draw something every day just to put pen on paper. And I feel that ask more beneficial than trying to do a masterpiece once a month or something. Yeah. Yeah. I see how you could even do that. That’s what I have, like not problems. If he were doing it when they’re saying that’s what they do. I’m not. I just car understand how you can make that happen.

Yeah. I mean like you said, I guess that to a certain extent there’s the whole let’s say people, you know, like how they just are instinctually how they naturally kind of perform better each to their own sort of thing. But I certainly know what you mean of like constantly doing stuff and constantly kind of honing his skills. Kind of makes more sense to me as well.

I know some people do do it literally for sort of I guess you call it like virtue signalling where I meditated for two hours, you know, like it’s as if there’s something that other people should even fucking know that, you know, it’s more about you telling them you did it than even maybe doing it.

Yeah, definitely. Again, it’s something that kind of is ever present, though, that kind of style of personal, that kind of thing. And we can all probably be a bit like that to whatever extent. But for sure, something especially is internal and personal as meditation. Why would you kind of need that? Definitely would would just lead me to immediately think you’re probably just not really getting it and all that. Maybe like you said, you’re kind of trying to show off or. Yeah, that sort style of thing.

And I’ve thought about trying to do more, find someone to teach me guided meditation. But because we spend the majority of the year in France, it be somebodies probably speaking in French. Just feel there’d be an immediate disconnect to my slack as if you’re trying to get a French hypnotist to speak French. It’s not my mother tongue, so I don’t feel like I’d be able to just sort of unify with someone guiding me in French. In a deep meditation. I feel like it would be like a middle man that just doesn’t need to be there.

Yeah, it’s like an obstacle behind than in the learning process already. It’s just going to be an obstacle. You could probably get round it, but it’s not going to make life easier. It’s just going to make it harder.

Yeah. Was this a second type? Yes.

For the first type is open monitoring meditation, which is like saying involves observing phenomenon, present moment, keeping your attention flexible on restricted. And then the second type would be what you call focused attention meditation, where you’re actually trying to concentrate on a single object like you’re breathing essentially. So probably while I was doing with the mental bicep, thoughts coming in and out would be the second. Yeah, that sounds more like that focused attention. I got my intent focused on something and the repetition of that. I guess counting your breaths or doing it almost create something that I guess would be connected to mantras. Right? Where you just repeating something?

Definitely. I remember well like I said then and it goes back to with the Harry Crichton is I think and also the the Buddhist retreats that I would often hear and something I found actually quite handy is that when I started doing it, I would generally be kind of told or advised to concentrate just on the breathing to start with an almost and that aspect of pushing it down into the belly. And that kind of side of things. And I remember often being told and I found this quite handy, especially like when I first started being probably like a young kid as well. Your mind tends to wander and you start actually almost before you realize it. Thinking about things outside of like what we said in the first thing where you’re letting it happen naturally come into now and you’re kind of like all of a sudden before you know it, they would always say like go back and concentrate on your breathing. If you if you notice that kind of happening or something like that. I was always kind of like a go back to the breathing and concentrate on the breathing. Always found it helpful.

Yeah, it’s an easy thing to just go back and just sort of work on. Another thing that just made me think about here was I think it was like Natalie Portman. Doesn’t she have like a doctorate in neuroscience or something? Really? Yeah. It might not be that. I’m sure it’s not exactly that. But I know she’s quite big, owns psychology, neurology, those kind of things. And something that more resonated me of Sydney meditation. I’m assuming you doing something very similar to when you’re sleeping and dreaming. You’re dealing with the same area of.

Slowing the heart rate down the area just on the physical level, slowing the breathing down, and I know her breathing.

A lot of people would be saying that you should almost wake up. Dream diaries, write down what you’re dreaming about and that there’s some value in that. I think it was her I might totally be. But this that she said she thought that dreaming was more like your brain dumping, like a laptop or almost emptying the recycle bins and taking everything in. Just getting rid of it. I felt for me. You could see that. Yeah, I feel a lot of times I have more. Not like maybe in negative dreams. I go through periods where have more positive or more negative. I feel like it’s my brain trying to shit it out. I don’t feel like writing it down and doing something with that would be particularly productive for me. I’m not like I really won’t remember that horrendous dream I had about something. I feel like my brain’s just emptying itself.

Yeah, I quite like that idea as well. I definitely notice a lot of the time that like when I do remember my dream first thing in the morning that I can quite easily almost not figure out what it means from that point of view, but see where it’s come from and realize all that. I’m dreaming about that because of something that’s happened. I that could be yesterday or a week ago or something. I can quite often see a little bit where it’s coming from is not necessarily that’s negative or positive, but it’s stuff that’s been maybe in the back of my mind or something that’s happened or whatever, and it’s maybe just kind of emptying it.

So I imagine a lot of people doing that where you’re kind of maybe overthinking and an influence your dreams. And then it seems like if you got up and wrote that down, you’re just kind of reinforcing that pattern, aren’t you? Yeah. Yeah, I know. You mean maybe it might help you to maybe understand what’s going on. But I think the point might be that you don’t need to understand that. You just need to just let it go. I feel like meditation is almost the same thing, isn’t it, where if you’re trying to analyze it and understand it, you’re kind of like missing the point about aren’t you just may be brain dumping, just quieting it and letting it do a different thing.

I think it’s more similar to sleep. So I guess we’ve got these two types of meditation, open monitoring and focused attention. The study was conducted in 2012 by Lorenzo Calls Arto, who’s a Dutch psychologist, even though that sounds very Italian to me. And she basically had her research, had a group of novices to meditation practicing these two styles after each meditation sessions. Subjects underwent tests to determine if their ability to perform or to determine their ability to perform a range of cognitive skills. And what they actually discovered was that open monitoring meditation was much more effective in stimulating divergent thinking, which is something we talked about four in the cannabis episode. Basically, the ability to solve problems with many possible solutions, which is obviously a key aspect of creativity and creates a kind of comes down to that.

What we were talking about earlier, thinking outside of the box a little bit and opening your mind up to different solutions, different ways of doing things, not just doing stuff to say like the same way again and again or the way you’ve been taught or the way that you would normally do it.

And then so the focused attention meditation, where it is concentrating on breathing, that kind of thing, was much more sort of strongly related to convergent thinking, which is when you’re sort of solving problems, we’re looking for single correct answer more on that. Two plus two equals four.

We talked about this a bit in the cannabis episode, didn’t we hear?

Again, that was another thing where they talking about the placebo groups and these different ways of thinking so well, as a side note on that sort of most forms of mindfulness meditation, actually generally using a blend of both open monitoring and focus attention is not literally you’re going to be like, right, I’m just doing one or the other because probably what you’re gonna end up with is even if you’re doing focusing on something at a certain point, you’re going to probably transfer into that open monitoring where thought to come in here now and stuff’s just happening and you’re kind of in that zone, quote unquote, where stuff is.

Yeah, like I said, I mean, I definitely, like I said earlier, was told to kind of always guided into kind of returning to the breathing if I was concentrating on something. And I definitely remember and again, I don’t know whether this was more in the Hindu and through to Harry Kushner or whether it was more on the Buddhist side of things, where it was that kind of idea of not clinging onto thoughts and letting thoughts coming in and out your mind without concentrating on it, trying to do that, if you know what I mean. So just letting things go in and out, not trying to focus on them necessarily, but kind of accepting the mother notes is quite a complicated thing. But like you said, I definitely was kind of guided into what you were just saying, which is probably a mix of both, you know, kind of the accepting the stuff coming in and out and the concentrating on the breathing. I will say that definitely I think it was in a Zen like weekend. They tried to have us doing working meditation where it was like it was up north somewhere or maybe even in Scotland, the Caribbean, because Isaac was living up in Edinburgh at a time we had a really funny weekend. That time we would discipline ourselves laughing with just. The things and stuff we saw and what not, but they were out like in the Lake District and it was like there was literally just the monastery and nothing else, and I think we went out and walked around and come in what we were doing. I can’t imagine we were collecting litter, but it was something along those lines. They wouldn’t really be any better there if, you know, I mean, maybe we were putting bulbs in or, I don’t know, something like that, you know? Yeah. And I didn’t really understand. I must admit, that was the first time I’d come across it. And I just didn’t understand it at all. Kind of maybe concentrating on what you were doing, but then trying to be kind of, I guess, minded and free about it.

And just just so it goes back into those stages or took about mastering something in a previous episode where to start with, you have your natural state, then you move into that kind of forced state where you’re learning something and you get some mastery where all the things you’ve learned you can just do naturally.

If you see someone who’s really good at anything, that’s basically what they’ve done in three, just repetition and learning. They’ve created a natural state where they have abilities to do whatever it is.

They’ve been focused on an incredibly high level and they’re in a kind of made it stiff state when they’re doing their daily stuff or their work or whatever is I guess that’s with Matt.

The difference between manual labor and like a desk job really wide. One of the benefits of the manual labor is obviously doing physical things that might de block your body a bit, but you also then possibly doing something you’ve done on a repetitive repetitively for a very long time, which obviously has its downsides and whatever. But the upside is you’re probably more in that connected. You know, you’re probably more likely to be outside or doing something sort of artisan based where you’re more connected with nature. You’re probably touching things, maybe word or stone based or dangly things. I think there is like a big connection between manual labor and I guess that’s like a working meditation where. Okay. Yeah. A lot people do exactly the same. They like going outside and doing gardening or something that they don’t do all the time trying to counterbalance it almost all year.

It’s interesting that you say that. I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this before, but this would obviously be on a purely from my own personal experience. But actually within the creative realm, like we said before, that I was kind of like when I went to art school, I was really my degree I did was actually specifically like screen printing and screen printings of funny one. And it’s gonna come up actually quite a lot in light later things is as far as like its artistic value and the practice and everything, but like screen printing kind of involved both elements. And I definitely noticed, especially with certain jobs I did maybe pre or during when we were starting up Pistache. And while I was at college, is it like that already? There was a big difference I found between say screen printing artwork and screen printing say fabrics, which were for fashion houses. You know, that’s one of the jobs I did at one point. We were I think I mentioned this. We were printing polka dots on silk, a type of fabric for for some high end fashion brand. I mean, the other thing is I mentioned this as well as a working for someone else, even though there was only two of us working. So I had a lot of responsibility, but it wasn’t the job wasn’t my responsibility. But all of that say that at a certain point it did seem quite meditative and it I felt pretty good, only up only doing that for certain amount of time, you know, and then all of a sudden there was maybe a lack of monotony or something that kicked in.

But what I mean is was specifically with screen printing and maybe not even like the screen printing for all or the screen printing on the fabrics, but even say the whole process when you were creating the actual all that you say. So you’re doing the design that you’re going to screen print, that’s obviously very artistic and very down that sort of side of things. But the screen printing especially, I mean, I don’t know how many times how many items of screen printed. I mean, just tens, tens, thousands for more at a certain point, I guess, again, I’m certainly not saying I’m any kind of master or not master of it, but I knew how to do it kind of so well at a certain point that unless it was something really out of the ordinary, I would get into this thing where I say I can’t go up there and to start screen printing in the studio and probably could be up there for eight or nine hours and wouldn’t even really notice and would just be concentrating, probably have a bit of music on in the background. And it’s a very creative process. But at the same time, it kind of went into what you were just talking about, you know, where it’s a very the French record at Artisan or whatever, where it’s like it’s artistic, but it’s kind of that manual labor kind of is between the two. Between the two. Exactly. And it’s kind of like there’s definitely a sweet spot. There is something that I’ve already appreciate and always likes about screen printing.

It has probably a slightly different skill to just being an artist. So if you’re just a painter or something, that is when you’re an artisan, it’s I guess it’s more generally product based or you’re more likely to be, I don’t know, making a gay or making something that has that kind of possibly functional style and repetitive, you know, all the time as well, where you you’re doing something and you do it again and again. Whereas art, I guess it’s a bit like that because I’ve been fighting recently with pain. Thing they’ve just done so much painting that I am getting into a statewide are just autopilot do it, but I feel like that’s more right. I’m just not questioning it. I’m just going with the thing that I think I just trust myself to do it. I also trust that I can have a process and techniques where if there’s an aspect of it I don’t like, I just know how to fix it.

Yes. So there is a certain element, the process. I guess the thing with screen printing is because it’s actually kind of the whole point of it is, is to repeat a design. I mean, really it seems like if you go into it came from Japan and it was a way of just replicating symbols, you know, essentially for whatever uses. So it was that thing where you could almost like a lack of photocopier, but like a a very kind of old traditional kind of photocopier in some way where you are literally just repeating something. So it’s it is an actual thing that the whole idea of it to start with was it was used to repeat the process.

And that goes back to sort of the way you’d learn kung fu as opposed to other martial actor.

It’s just a repetition if you’re being mindful enough. Feud understands the fine details of that repetition.

You just done automatic. Yeah. You know, like you’re gonna be making all these like say with something like screen printing, especially if you do fabrics like by the meter, for example. You’re constantly having to regulate little things, but you just do it automatically. You’re not even really thinking about all that’s happening. So I need to do that is literally just kind of you’re on automatic and you’re making all these fine changes and little details and stuff. You just do it.

And I guess this goes back to these two types of meditation where one’s a real free flowing one’s like a repetition thing. It makes you think about, say, the greats like Hicks and Gracie and Jujitsu, where he’s just and I guess Roger as well. They’re basically they’re just doing the basics. They just understand every aspect of those basics. So you get someone else to say, like Eddie Bravo, where he’s almost gone the other way, where he’s understanding so much technique and evolving techniques and sort of free flow creating something. And it’s not like a video, right or wrong way to do it. It’s almost just two were two different way different approaches. And I guess just the doing the basics seems like to me like it might be a more reliable way to do it, but sometimes it’s good to just it just fucking just go for it.

They were talking a bit about that on Joe Rogan experience when George asked Machado was who was actually on top of Eddie’s teacher, right? Yeah.

And he’s also the guy who’s on that whole Gracie thing. And he was talking a bit about that. And especially especially what you were saying about Hicks, the way that he would process things. You know, the funny thing is, as he was doing that, but he was also at the forefront of like the whole meditation, breathing, yoga, yoga. He was the only guy doing it, all those things. So he was kind of like you said, almost like, hey, maybe that’s why he was so good cause he was here and he was doing both. Yeah. He was doing this like basic jujitsu. Like they said he’d often start in the worst position and just do it again and again and again like someone basically almost in the finishing move. Yeah. And then he’d get out from it. But like you said he would go through it so systematically and. Yeah. With the bay with the basics that that’s how you would work it.

But at the same time like we just said, he was going off and doing all this crazy, doing all these other things at a lower level, not a low level technique wise, doing these other things to then have a very focused end goal using both.

Like you said, almost quite, almost separately. Yeah. Whereas like I said, the thing with screen printing almost makes me feel like you’re kind of combining the two in one practice, you know. So there’s also those kind of things where you could be doing the two separate for an angle or you could be combining the two into a practice for kind of an angle.

I think a lot of times you see people who really high level good at something. They’re also actually generally pretty damn good at something else. Like I always think of Steve Nash and he obviously totally revolutionized how basketball is played. I think he Tipperary prefer to have been a pro. Football. Soccer? Yeah. Soccer. Football. But then you could see the way he played that changed basketball. He’s bringing in a sort of mentality and a way of thinking about it that no one else had done up to that point. I also think the reverse of that was I remember when Renaldo. You are now saying that Cristiano Ronaldo, everyone around me who is INTERFET couldn’t care less about it was sort of always rubbish or just shown us. I know I can see he’s based on basketball and crossovers and if he can keep that going, he’s going to just revolutionize football, which he then did by having a looking at other things outside of football. Other people weren’t doing.

He was taking that one on one element, which you get a lot more in basketball where you be your man. Yeah. And then you attract to everyone else and then you pass it off or something. You’re kind of almost that Steve Nash kind of thing where you beat them off the dribble. He was kind of doing and using that in a football thing, whereas it’s true. And this is one of the reasons why I don’t really enjoy watching football is that I find that there’s not enough of that. There is a lot of this passing the ball, waiting for a space, and then those rare players who actually enjoy watching, you know, a little bit more like that where like messy or someone else take it to the guy or just go past. Yeah. You know, and then actually take it.

The dude, instead of just passing it back and forth, like in that Simpsons episodes, you know, where they’re watching. You’ve seen that while in the Brazilian. And there was as many comments as the like going crazy and shouting about it. And all that’s happened holds the ball. He holds it for its losses. And on the other screen, it’s just like in the midfield, just three guys just passing back and forth is brilliant.

Yeah, but another thing thinking about, even when you’re saying about printing, listening to music, I guess with meditation and something I don’t know enough about, considering how many of them are poorly tattooed and how much I should probably know about it is like mantras where people are just repeating a mantra that I assume has some kind of unification.

And I don’t know whether the sounds are significant for vibrations in your body, how it’s constructed on a deep level. Obviously, that’s a big part of meditating and repeating these things and repeating phrases, I guess to a point where it becomes has no more meaning.

They definitely talk about like the vibrations and something about that element to it definitely has a lot of importance. I mean, this again, guy goes into very much the Buddhist side of things, right?

Whether it’s like I know a Vedic as well. Okay. Right. With frequencies for chakras, I think I think a year is what stimulates and reason activates.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s interesting because I’ve actually been healed by someone using frequencies on my chakras. Like I saying when I couldn’t walk into a listening tradition or western medicine, I was doing nothing. And Jeff’s brilliant. Yeah. And I had deep I felt deep blocking in my body using vibrations connected to chakras.

So I know he has a Western machine on top of it, which again, is he’d be a really interesting person to talk to on here. I would definitely get him on. So we won’t go into it. But he has this crazy machine that like checks the vibrations on your meridians and stuff. It’s really, really interesting. Yeah.

So then I think once you get past that, sometimes I find I get really obsessive about like one song they’ll just hear for some reason I just listened so I can listen. So if I’m driving to a tattoo studio 44, 45, 50 minute drive, I can just listen to one song just on repeat. And at least now on Apple Music, I found out how you just repeat a song rather than having to just press.

My integrity will tell me that after you get that kind of comes back into the what worth mentioning with the White Men Can’t Jump where we were a bit like that with music, movies. And I’m on top of it, maybe even in a specific context. Yeah, well you might watch a movie before you do a certain thing and just watch that movie again and again or listen to a music. I know you had that when you early on in the tattooing where you can’t had a connection with a specific.

What what happened was a list you yet a players generated a playlist, but there was also that thing where that dude was mixing. You know, he bought some T-shirts off of us at some point. He was mixing. Oh, yeah. That particular one was his mix in most def with Marvin Gaye, wasn’t it? Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I think could I really should remember that. Sorry, man. Yeah. Safe. Cool. If anyone gets the chance to check it out, he’s done multiple ones of these. There was like a de la soul. It would generally maybe be a hip hop artist. Soul of America. America goes away. America goes away. Goes away. Yeah, something like that. Go and check that out. Yeah.

Those few albums especially that most definitely. Marvin who were on top of it. Two of my you know, if you asked me my favorite soul singer and my favorite hip hop artist, those guys would be amongst the very top on both lists.

Marvin Gaye’s almost a perfect example because if you look at when he was he had more structured traditional things of Motown. It was decent a certain way. But then as soon as he just had the liberty and he broke that down. Yeah. I just mean, we’re seeing that thing where he’s just chillin in a tracksuit just with a mike next to someone, just the band just playing music.

And then he’s just sort of almost just freestyle, just singing was like thus he clashed a lot with, you know, who is the owner of Motown as a Berry Gordy, Berry Gordy. I think that was his name because he was very controlling and it was almost like a hit factory sort of style thing where you got this many people who write the song.

Yeah. Then you get in kind of like someone obviously more more so than now who could sing the shit out of it. But what could have been a good looking young girl, something like that and combined all these elements. But the funny thing is, is, like you said with Marvin, he really went against that thing. It was specifically with what’s going on the album. What’s going on was was where he broke all of that shit down. But the funny thing is, is there probably would have been no Stevie Wonder, certainly not Motown if it hadn’t been for Marvin Spann. He was really young and he was in there on those sessions.

I don’t know if you don’t use plan on them now, but, you know, he was heavily influenced and then start playing all these different instruments and was so trusting him possibly that the reputation of the music, I did that in the car and that’s pretty when I did a lot of my best creative thinking. And I think I’m just creating a kind of mantra that’s put me into a sort of maybe made it or at least a state that’s connected to the meditation through lack of sort of repetition. Processed it’s making me or whether I’m consciously doing or subconsciously I’m creating good conditions to have creative thoughts, you know. Yeah, it’s interesting. If I’m at home, generally, I work a lot from home. I’ve got two kids. You know, there’s a lot of screaming and crazy noise. And I don’t know how much creative thinking I get done in that situation. I think very little. I think I’m just taking things off the to do list, which I’ll see in the car. It’s harder to write emails or do all these things that are on the to do list because I’m driving a car. So that’s when it’s gonna be better to maybe be more creative.

It’s like you said, those are those kinds of times when people actually have a bit of free time, funnily enough, in the modern world is when you drive in somewhere, especially driving because you’re actually by yourself a lot of the time, which rarely happens, is quite different experience to being on the train. I mean, nowadays for sure, a pair of headphones on and you’ve got your phone and you can listen to. That’s why I was going to cost us. Yeah, exactly. Cause there’s just so many like sort of times. But it’s true that a lot of people said to us, oh, well I’ll listen to the podcast when I’m driving to work tomorrow or something like that. It’s a very. Yep. Kind of go to.

I think they’re probably gonna think about doing an episode because we’ve had a few people sort of asking us questions and stuff so we might have a possibly a Q and a style episode. So feel free to get in touch with us and ask it. Any questions really. I mean about any of the subjects here. Keep it vaguely on the theme.

You know, it’s not like they are even suggestions of things or ideas about anything and everything.

Like if we have people asking questions, we can kind of engage people more and just actually get a few shout outs and and do that because it’s no one really cares what we have for breakfast. There’s no point asking those kind of things. It’s not gonna be super useful. So another thing that might get more into an a longer episode, but it obviously is very connected to this is there’s nobody seems to be a connection between creativity and intelligence or I guess intelligence is a very vague year, maybe in a really sort of IQ style test or. Well, there’s a psychologist called Robert Sternberg who argued that creativity requires three different types of intelligence. And his theory is pretty popular in both educational psychology and cognitive psychology as well. Really, those three types, intelligence would be the first is synthetic intelligence, which is the ability to see or analyze a problem in a new, unique way. The second would be analytic intelligence, which has the ability to analyze the relationships between ideas and apply those relationships to problems. And the third would be practical intelligence, which is basically the ability to come up with new ideas or new ways to solve problems based on your past experience or feedback from other people.

I guess if you’re working in a group also based on your previous experiences, your stuff you’ve attained. Yeah, it’s interesting. So three types. So just say again.

So this systematic analytic impractical. Okay. And his theory is that basically to be creative, he actually needs to have or improve or focus on those three types of intelligence. And it’s a combination of all of those. So you could possibly be very intelligent in one of those areas and not so much in the other two. You could be still be hyper intelligent, but you might not actually be particularly creative. Okay. For example, you could be very in just took a practical intelligence. You could be you could come up with sort of solve problems based on experience or the feedback of others where but not could not actually doing what needs to be done afterwards. Say, for example, I think it’s just that that’s just a one facet element creativity. We also want to be able to add in the ability to analyze a problem in a new way and also have that ability to analyze the relationships between different ideas or like we’re saying, between basketball and football or something like that. So some like Steve Nash or Kris Jenner, an Alto or Hicks and Grace, they probably have a lot of analytic intelligence where they could see those relationships and apply those relationships.

I guess I think this is probably like a broad statement, but I think a lot of people out there would agree just because of, again, like past experiences on top of it of like talking to people. But I think it’s quite not common. But we all know people or even the people that we know where we could kind of say, well, you’re a bit more like this or you’re a bit more like that. Just naturally, you know, we all know those kind of ideas. People listen why I said about earlier where they maybe don’t know, they don’t have the follow through, but they’re just very creative from the point of view of like, why did you do this? Why did you do that? But they’re not going to be the people that actually do it. Yeah. Kind of style thing. Do you know what I mean? Or say at an age like choosing another one or there. They’re very good at like analyzing something and giving you a new idea of like, well, why don’t you do that? When you say, well, you know, you’re just chit chatting, it could even be with a friend. Say, for example, I keep on having problems with this and they’re like, well, why don’t you approach the problem like that? Yeah. Or like this. You know, I’m not gonna name names, but I already even just within those two things, I can already think of a bunch of Pacific people who.

Kind of in that way, we mentioned him before I actually spoke to him the other day, a friend, Mark Belgium. Mark. Very creative. Yeah. Within something which was a wage job isn’t necessarily a very creative, but it’s very creative in the wearing different colors to affect moods or to to enhance his position or not manipulate the situation. But basically, you know, which had just a lot of people just aren’t going to fucking think of it in the first place.

If this is just a ridiculous idea as well that people might think creativity is sort of connected with being extrovert and kind of looking like you got loads of ideas and talking about things. But I think a lot of the real introverted people are going to be equally as creative.

Yeah, I definitely don’t think there’s more probably creative people within who are one type or the other. Yeah, like I said, maybe if in different ways. Or an inclination to be creative in those different copy.

More clients even think that being introverted might be more more creative because you’re possibly burning off less energy. Just talking bullshit.

I mean that’s one element. Yeah, but then like you said, if you’re talking a lot. Yeah. You might just be more open and just absorbing more. But then if you’re talking maybe you’re not listening so much. So if you actually start analyzing it, both sides, there’s probably a lot of let’s say positives and negatives that you could probably just get straight into.

I think at the end of day also comes down to a certain point. If you’re just blasting out, doing a lot of things, you might come to a solution or do something good. But just by throwing out so many possibilities that you’re going to something’s going to stick and be decent. You know, I always say that I learned how to do photography in a dark room with film before digital. So you got to actually be more committed to doing it both financially and the time invested, where now you can pick up a phone, shoot 10000 photos, you can have a good one, you’ll get one good one.

You could sit down with your old for an ass. You’re a fucking millionaire.

Yeah. You say to now you can get results. But for me that would still I’ll still be saying doing that for me is not a photographer. Right. You know, you’d have to have a higher hit rate than that for me to for it to actually be skill base.

Well let’s say talking in creativity about the two, for example, when we’re working together, there’s definitely a lot of things which either I’ll do the more you’ll do that.

Yeah. Say, for example, for me, I’m a fuckin awful photographer. You can you can like. Yeah. You know, vouch for me on that one. My girlfriend Jenny, I’ll definitely vouch for me. We go on holiday. I think I might have even mentioned this before. We come back with all these great photos. I mean, there’s never any or there’s one good one of her, probably because I’ve snapped like a hang on a sec now snap like 20 photos or something and hope, you know, there are good ones occasionally, but that’s why you’d want to do it.

Well, anyways, take 20 and. Sure.

But the funny thing is, is like I don’t think I’ve got a bad eye. Yeah. It’s like I can look at photos and I think I’ve got quite a good eye or I certainly I like this, I like that. And in the artistic element, it’s not like I can’t decide what is a good photo. And this is a problem with the tattooing. Obviously publicity and us doing the tattooing is like you take a photo of the tattoo and it can be a great tattoo, but if it’s a crappy photo, it just doesn’t. Yeah. It frustrates me a lot because I often find it doesn’t do justice to the yet to the tattoo I’ve just done. Occasionally it will. And now like you say in the digital age, I got a much better chance than if I’ve been photographed in tattoos with film.

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it is just looking at what’s there and working out what the problem is with there and then just taking a photo generally just filling the frame. If you look at it and it’s too bright or especially a tattoo is it’s a bit shiny there. National is gonna be poor even worse in the photo. It goes to a lot of it as well. When we do a lot of art things or events or just be photos, are you doing it?

And people think, oh, it was really good when needed.

Then as I was doing, I had to take the photo because if he does, it would just be like an awful for her to smoke won’t be good.

Maybe I’ll put it on Instagram. I will use it on the site.

Just worrying a lot of it. Like a distance thing? Definitely. That’s why I was going to say is that you often say it’s me to take photos of them closer. Yeah. The problem is when I do, I’m closer. They’re even fucking worse than when I do them a bit. I’ve just noticed that in general. And even if I just look at how many likes it gets there something if I do close up one he gets no like. Yeah. And probably because I just don’t take the time to focus on it. I don’t know what it is, but it is the thing. Central. Should it be central. I’ve got no idea. Like I said, I can look at it and be like that’s a great photo, but I can’t seem to fucking take it.

I guess what. Although I don’t know. So I’ll shoot things from at least different and two different angles for the light and then I one or two that further out I’ll pre cover the bases. See I don’t do that. Yeah. With a process of just two or three changes. Right. So I know the light especially our studio is so heavily lit from one directly X. We’ve got a window out and a window says like right.

Shoot it from this side and I’ll flip them around and just shoot it from the other an employee further way and I’ll just make each one almost as different as possible. And I’ll just try and make sure each one’s in focus is a good start. And then you don’t end up with just lots of.

I definitely. Both from you having told me all these things, I take, for example, what you just said, I’ll take them all from the light side. Yeah, I’ll never take them from the dark side. I’ll probably move around very little or ask the person to move around a little. Yep. So I’m basically probably taking a bunch of shots that are all pretty much the same, but zoomed slightly in or out and that’s about it. And I’ll probably be not enough of that kind of stuff when we shoot two of each.

Right. No.

No point in taking five or 10 of the same fucking thing. Right.

Yeah. It’s just longer time you wasting looking at all the options, whether it makes a difference. I went to sheet products now t shirt, skate, whatever for our online shot from magazines or whatever. I’ll just shoot like two of each thing and then just change it. Otherwise I’m like all what’s the point? And at least two. If you find that the angle or whatever you’re looking for, one of the teams might be slightly better. He only making a you know, you’re making a lot of the decisions and the time wasting so are done early. So when you come to the final thing, it’s quite easy.

It’s just A or B rather not CTF G or for the people out there that might follow us on R tattoo on R Indigenous Tattoo Instagram. Let me know if I get any back. I’m obviously learning a little bit at the moment, so I’m going to try and take another new approach and try and take on some of this information gone off on a tangent there.

Yeah, no, really. I mean it was probably, I guess, those three different levels of intelligence. Yeah, really? You could say so. Probably improving both divergent and convergent thinking through meditation might increase your intelligence, which could then potentially make you more creative.

Because well, according to Robert Sternberg, to be creative, you gotta have these three different types of intelligence. So if you can improve your capabilities or your your levels if you want in those three areas, intelligence, you should theoretically be able to make yourself more creative.

Yeah, it’s interesting. And then there’s the whole thing as well. Like we said, you’re probably going to be naturally inclined to one of the three. More than the others. Or even, say, two or three, but more inclined, you know. I would’ve thought it’s more common to be more inclined to one or two of the three rather than being very even amongst the three, which I’m sure you know. No doubt there is people who are fairly good at all of those kinds of aspects. But then you concentrate. You know, it comes back. This thing. Well, do you concentrate more on the thing that you’re really good at and just become really fucking good at that? Just pure offense. Banksy. Exactly. Or do you think? Well, I’m already quite good at that, so I just won’t fucking even think about that and worry about it and concentrate on your weaknesses.

I guess here he’s saying you need all three, you need all three.

So what would be a good idea to concentrate on your weaknesses?

Well, I’d be thinking if it was me and I’d be overthinking it. Like I usually do. I’d be thinking right. So I’m naturally going to be able to improve what I’m stronger at. That’s going to require the least amount of effort. If I have things that are weaknesses, it’s like when I like doing a new marsh locks, I go back to like a white belt and there’s no expectations and the learning curve super high. So I think you could take those ones. You’re a bit shit and you pour your learning curve to get reasonably good. It’s probably not gonna be too stressful.

So I only think learn you’ll probably increase your creativity quicker, at least in the immediate.

But then it looks like if you do a three meditation, you keep probing, you know, improve your divergent and convergent thinking by doing meditation. Just by doing that, you pray you’re going to improve your intelligence levels in all three of those areas. So that would make sense. That’s interesting. That’s semi what would end up being the conclusion, which is the research obviously shows that some types of meditation can stimulate creativity and others may not be so effective and they are more useful in other areas. Your life, like we’re saying, creativity is not the main reason why a lot of people meditate.

So we’re looking at very specific areas of meditate, small aspect that people really concentrate on when they talk about or have a reason to meditate or whatever it is.

So probably in that case, it seems that sort of open monitoring meditation has been proven to be very effective in stimulating divergent thinking, which is basically a key aspect of creativity. So if you’re looking to boost your creativity, that kind of meditation seems like quite a good place to start. And really, the barriers to entry are very low. You just need a little bit of spare time, which obviously isn’t always the easiest thing. But even if you do five minutes, once a week is still better than.

And that’s the type of meditation. Just as a reminder where you’re kind of just trying to be really free, not concentrate on anything and being very just quiet on quite open minded or where you’re just letting things go in and out and just not concentrating on what they’re hearing or a thing that’s always going to say the open, then you just need a reasonably quiet place or time and a bit of quiet.

Then I guess with that with Robert Steinberg’s research, doing both types of those meditation where you’re improving divergent and convergent thinking is probably going to increase your intelligence, which would then in turn increase your creativity. So yeah, I don’t think it be a loss to do. You know, you’re not wasting time probably doing the focused attention meditation and possibly even by doing that once you could use that to start it off, sort of get the motor taken over and as soon as your brain is kind of warmed up. It might. Transferring into the open monitoring meditation is almost in my mind. The aim of the focused attention is to then get into the other state. You might have a process to get into it rather than just sitting there and thinking it’s just going to happen.

Just thinking that you’re just going to almost like click turn your mind off. And it’s just going to go onto automatic kind of like you said of that difficulty, which may be personal or not personal. Getting in and out of that stay. Or like ISIL said earlier, where my personal experience was pretty much a mix of both. In one meditative process, let’s say, I think it is more and it was more from the Hindu kind of very early experiences that probably sort of wrap this up.

It made me think, well, we’re doing about two other hours we could go into. I know when I’ve had super stressful things to do, like doing your first tattoo on yourself. Normally I do meditation to reduce the anxiety, but sometimes when something so stressful and I write, I just can’t shut my brain off doing either type of those meditations. So I do more like visualization of the whole thing going really well to cut it short. That seems to be as beneficial for me as as meditation. Possibly more so. Maybe I’ll do one on visualization and creativity or possibly visit visualization versus meditation. Either way, something that sort of incorporates that. And then the other thing with meditation and guided meditation is that nowadays on your phone is obviously like hundreds of meditation apps and guided meditation you can listen to on Spotify or stuff like that. So possibly at some point we might do an episode where both of us sort of road test some of the apps and some of the guided meditation and see if we feel like what the benefits were. If we feel like we’re more creative or we’ve actually had more creative output, easier to get in.

Those states are definitely just from my personal experience. But having not meditated for years and then getting back into it like the Brahm, even his guided meditations, where were you literally just listening to something where he’s guiding people in a room through it, even just him saying those little few minutes of words or whatever to get you into it. And then even him breaking you out of it after only 20 minutes or half an hour. Certainly helped me compared to I’m just sitting there by myself like. So, yeah, it’d be interesting to see what these kind of apps or different online and offline experiences, how they effects yet.

So maybe that saying we’re going to further down the line and I think that pretty much wraps it son up. So thanks again for listening and we’ll see you soon. Yep. Thanks.

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